Neptune in 2nd or 3rd?

[wind]

Yes, I know all cannot be explained by Neptune, but in fact, yes, Neptune is Sacrifice, absolutely. It is ego-lessness,although this doesn't necessarily mean anything noble - many times it means a totally disfunctional psychological structure without proper center and being totally dispersed.
Sacrifice comes from 'sacrificio' - making sacred. To sacrifice involve give away to the gods. That is why the notion of non-material was connected to this,since it was given away, to be purified, so that the only pure spirit remained.

This is all neptune domaine. A very deep, complex and difficult dynamics. It can destroy the individual if he doesn't know how to deal with this. And many times people have no clue. Living with Neptune is no joke. He can be a cruel teacher. He washes away all you cling to, so that you know a different reality - it can lead to total psychological break-downs. Opening to the 'spiritual' world, to the world where you 'sacrificed', 'made sacred' can be the hardest life lesson.

It is sensed that you have a bit of antagonism towards piscens and this kind of energy, and I can understand that since they love to play martyrs and victims if they not mature, grow up. But this is the case with all signs, they have the 'immature' and 'mature' expression. Capricorns can be grumpy old men or wise teachers, Aquarians detached minds not aware of the personal world or very intellecutal evolutionists, etc. Scorpios can be pure poison if they do not dig out all the buried complexes and power, etc. It all depends on the level of awarness and maturity of the each individual.

Planets are just symbols - how they 'incarnate' in people and how the person chooses to live them is another matter. Levels of people differ, greatly.

But yes, Neptune is also loss, sacrifice and giving away and it is a refined, psychic energy that many times cannot or does not know how to deal with the earthly world, it is also 'jesus' energy in the sense of the symbolism that he represented and piscean era was all coloured by the division on the 'higher' and 'lower', the heaven and earth, spiritual-material... Neptune longs to be 'rescued' or better to say 'redeemed'. Piscean era collected a lot of notion of 'sins needing to be washed away'. Neptune wants to return to paradise, that is to the original home. A very complex dynamics. This is where our biggers longings are. It is also 'twice-born', connected to the myth of Dyonisus, and so on and so on, very deep and complex as all the planets. Many myths pertain to it and there are many faces.
And yes, it certainly can be mother energy, it is the energy of great cosmic womb where all dissolves and where we all return to. But it is a total dissolution, so many people cannot function with him. I have seen Neptune transits bringing great losses, deaths of children even - but I have seen it work in 'magical ways' as well. Or as a Poseidon who brought tsunamies. It can be a very deranged energy - as all outer planets.

And there are of course many other aspects, I am not going to enter into this here, no time I work with psychological astrology where all the outer planets are taken very seriously and all the planets (personal, social and collective) are psychologically very complex.

And in the end you have the INDIVIDUAL - his consciousness that decides how these energies will be manifested.

But Neptune, Pluto, Uranus - no joke with them and no simple, one sided explanations. Usually it is a matter of life time to fully comprehend what they mean, and more and more layers open.
It is eternal growth and discovery. Who is ready for that - that is another matter.

 

[wind]

p.s. - as for astrological 'cookbooks' - oh, please, are we really even talking about them?

If you want to really understand and get a better grasp of Neptune, read Liz Greene's book 'Neptune'. 500 pages that explain what this archetype is all about.
Of course, this is psychological astrology.

 

[wind]

And as for 'mother energy' - Pluto is mother energy as wellThe Great Mother, The Devouring Mother. Among other things, of course But this is another topic.

 

[Ronia]

wind, we'll have to agree to disagree, simply because I'm not into psychological digging, neither with astrology nor with cards. When people come and ask questions, they want answers to suite them in everyday life, which is why I'm looking for these explanations and answers, practical, as well as events, the big deal. When and how this and this will happen, people want to know.

I don't see Neptune as mothering, womb, washing away (that is definitely Pluto to me in terms of taking away, Hades, the God of Underworld, and whom I don't see as any kind of mother), or martyrdom except if afflicted. But any sign can be a martyr if certain planets are afflicted, Moon, for example.

Oh, and I love Neptunian people which is why I surround myslef with them and I have no reason to have problems with them, in fact, some of the most beloved and influential people in my life were and are Neptunians, don't know how you reached your conclusion. Looking purely astrologically, if we see Neptune as ruler of water sign, I, as a water person myself, have no problem with this energy. In fact, I find myself among the few who defend Neptunians and stray away from the "drug using drinking delusional wishy-washy dreamers".

I know Liz Greene's book but as I said, I'm looking for more practical stuff. Sadly, with the outers the knowledge of the ancient astrologers and their vast experience can not be used, so much time will pass before we have enough to rely on.

 

[wind]

Well, if you are not into psychological exploring, it is sure that we cannot find a common ground. Yes, of course, people always want 'practical' answers, they don't really want to dig deep. Rare ones do. But this is not my approach and I don't use astrology for 'fortune telling'. It is a psychoanalitical tool and a tool of self-discovery. That people usually don't want to go on this kind of journey, is obvious and clear

You didn't understand my statement correctly - Pluto in itself is not a mother, of course not, but putonian energy of devouring can certainly be the dark mother, swallowing mother. Observed many times, I am not talking just theoretically.

All outer planets in some way 'kidnap us', so many attributes can be assigned - washing, swallowing, engulfing, breaking... And Neptune as the oceanic energy certainly can wash away - among other things As I said, I have seen children taken away under the Neptune transit, so when the tide comes, he definitely takes, if needed. It depends on the individual. Neptune definitely is connected with loss and sacrifice, and in consequence with refinement, cleansing. But the person needs to know how to work with this - and it is sure that in general, people have no idea nor are ready to explore it.

But as I said, these are psychological and psychoanalitical themes and they need such a mind, deep inquiry and exploration. And especially a deep awarness that the inner and outer world reflect one another. But yes, people usually don't seek that kind of understanding and are only interested in the outer events and if they will fit or not into their lives.

Well, everyone has his or her own way. Good luck!

 

[Ronia]

Well, if you are not into psychological exploring, it is sure that we cannot find a common ground. Yes, of course, people always want 'practical' answers, they don't really want to dig deep. Rare ones do. But this is not my approach and I don't use astrology for 'fortune telling'. It is a psychoanalitical tool and a tool of self-discovery. That people usually don't want to go on this kind of journey, is obvious and clear

Mmm... The way you have written this it sounds almost offensive to everyone who is looking for practical answers and far from the "dignified" search of some eternal truths. In an astrological chart? Predictive astrology is indeed a very tough thing and I deeply respect anyone's efforts to bring this astrology closer to people. And I find it very interesting to deduct from past events and to find patterns which fit the present. If they happen to materialize the same way in the future, that's an Eureka!

P.S. I find it most annoying to ask a simple question and to get in return some endless theoritization about who I am, why I am, who I was in my 93 reincarnation, how my great-great-great-grandfather affected my marriage when he left to war 150 years ago and so on. I am all for moderation. What's been happening in the divination circles over the past ten years is just over the top. A big deal over the top. A so called "reader" who can't answer me a simple yes/no question is simply not capable to answer more complicated ones, to me. I just cross them from the list.

You didn't understand my statement correctly - Pluto in itself is not a mother, of course not, but putonian energy of devouring can certainly be the dark mother, swallowing mother. Observed many times, I am not talking just theoretically.

I do understand. And I still disagree. I am myself a Pluto person, have followed this planet for very long and have written here many times about Pluto. Devouring who and how and how does it manifest? To me Pluto is: end; deeply uprooting change; life changing events of all kinds, normally include pain, may be physical too; a tool of enormous power which can be suffered or used, the latter gives power over the masses to those who master it; material goods, especially those which are not visible to everyone and if reached, vast amounts of them; in certain combos participates in birth prediction in return charts.

All outer planets in some way 'kidnap us', so many attributes can be assigned - washing, swallowing, engulfing, breaking...

How do we distinguish the outer planets if we assign to all of them those? Why would they rule different signs and how would this rulership manifest if their behaviour is nearly the same?

And Neptune as the oceanic energy certainly can wash away - among other things As I said, I have seen children taken away under the Neptune transit, so when the tide comes, he definitely takes, if needed. It depends on the individual.

I'm a bit confused. If it depends on the individual, then it can't be a "definite" thing coming from the planet. Again, you say you've seen children taken during Neptune transit but since we are on an astrological forum, let's do it as we should, let's take a look at the person's chart at this moment and see if only Neptune was playing? Because I haven't seen such events during a Neptune transit, so I'd be very interested.

Neptune definitely is connected with loss and sacrifice, and in consequence with refinement, cleansing. But the person needs to know how to work with this - and it is sure that in general, people have no idea nor are ready to explore it.

Again, *definitely* according to what, to who? Even with ancient astrology there are no definite things, despite the hundreds of years of observation they had over the personal planets which no one has had with the outers yet. What makes you say that Neptune *definitely* brings loss and sacrifice? I say that I haven't seen anything similar just because of Neptune, on his own.

To add, I am in a Neptune/natal Sun/natal Mars transit, Neptune on the Asc in solar arc, Neptune/Sun progressed conjunction after a progressed New Moon on natal Neptune and Pisces progressed Asc. (I know how it all played out and still plays out and it has nothing to do with loss, I can explain it all), if I have to use myself as an example, as I have tons of Neptunian aspects currently and over the past year.

And again, I haven't sacrificed friends or sacrificed myself for friends with Neptune in the 11th, haven't sacrificed ideas, on the contrary; I gave another person as an example for the purity of his unaspected Neptune, I'd love to see some examples from you too. We can post charts and everyone will be able to judge and practice. May be there will be more than one point of view but most importantly, we won't be theoritizing.

But as I said, these are psychological and psychoanalitical themes and they need such a mind, deep inquiry and exploration. And especially a deep awarness that the inner and outer world reflect one another.

That's common truth, I think and doesn't require some kind of superior mind, it's part of all known cults, legends and religions (later). But I fail to see how it proves your points above. You spoke of events, not of psychoanalitical themes. If someone's child is taken and you say it's due to a Neptunian transit, would you contribute to the statement? Outers haven't been vastly explored, it's always useful to see a chart with a prominent event and judge what brought the event to happen.

But yes, people usually don't seek that kind of understanding and are only interested in the outer events and if they will fit or not into their lives.

Well, it's only natural, you also spoke of events above. Life consists of events, after all. And is far simpler than people love to make it look.

 

[upawell]

Do you have siblings? Third house is about siblings as well. I have a friend with Neptune in 3th and she felt the 'losses' and sacrifices in regard to her sister for whom she needed to care and be responsible for from the early age. She 'lost' her childhood curiosity and explorations because she needed to take care of the sister - and it took her many years to let go and stop constantly worry what is happening to her, be overprotective.
Also, blurry mind and lack of 'scientific' perception and objectivity can be found here. Neptune is not so well in the third house, this is objective mind versus intutive mind (9th house).

As for the second house, it is true that Neptune in the 2nd gives you a lot of neptunian talents. I see second house as our inner mine, all ressources, all you have - and you have got talents, they are 'gifts', you 'possess them'. Neptune in the 2nd brings money if you work in neptunian profession I am a strong pisces, my Neptune is in the 11th house and he rules my Sun, Moon, Venus and Mercury - and all of them, with the exception of the Moon, are in the second house. Also Neptune is tightly squaring my Sun. I have many 'piscean' talents - but I didn't really start earning and be financially at ease untill I started to do piscean things and put my talents into practice (teaching, translating, writing (that would be Mercury), spiritual healing and counselling). Also, I spent a lot of money on neptunian things (art - my Venus in Pisces in 2nd house loves beautiful things, ornaments, nice objects, just for the sake of the beauty, spiritual workshops, meditative groups, music...).

Hi wind,

Yes I do have siblings, and did feel responsible for my younger ones, though I can't say I feel as if I lost my childhood in that respect. I looked out for them and in later years did come to feel as if I were a parent to them (not a good thing), but only because it created a dynamic that made it hard to just be siblings. I suppose I could say there was some lingering resentment, but those would be directed more to my parents than my siblings. All water under the bridge really. And most everyone I know has looked out for their younger siblings (or older in some cases) and while there might have been frustrations at the time, most of us currently feel it was a positive life experience.

And I really resonate with the 2nd house description you provided. My 5th house is empty but Neptune does rule it.

Again, here I am. Both house interpretations can easily fit my inner and outer experiences. I'm beginning to wonder if the house cusp thing is the problem because both themes seem to hold equal weight.

 

[upawell]

Very interesting thoughts all around.

I guess I try to approach astrology from both perspectives. To have both, or multiple, perspectives enriches the layers and depth of self-understanding. I love to hear input from all angles, sometimes even the majorly concrete, fatalistic readings can be relevant, if sobering. If I had more time I would love to study some of the more traditional forms of astrology that is often discussed in this forum.

I feel like you both (Ronia and wind) have valid approaches. If anything, they are complimentary. Personally, I seek to resonate with both the psychological and the mundane interpretations, because they're one and the same. I appreciate both and think they can work together beautifully.

 

[Ronia]

And most everyone I know has looked out for their younger siblings (or older in some cases) and while there might have been frustrations at the time, most of us currently feel it was a positive life experience.

Now, you *must* check if they all have Neptune in the 3rd! Seriously, we have all taken care of someone at some point. Of course, it's frustrating when you want to listen to your favorite band or chat over the phone, instead of feeding or wiping or playing cars or dolls. But that's not relevant to the influence of a planet in an astrological chart, IMHO. If that was so, all future mother should have Neptune in the 3rd. In fact, the 6th would be far more telling of an enslaving someone to look after another causing the former emotional discomfort and possibly long term damage. The 6/12 would be activated and most probably the rulers would show the shadowy situation of serving (6) and self-undoing (12), IMHO.

 

[upawell]

Now, you *must* check if they all have Neptune in the 3rd! Seriously, we have all taken care of someone at some point. Of course, it's frustrating when you want to listen to your favorite band or chat over the phone, instead of feeding or wiping or playing cars or dolls. But that's not relevant to the influence of a planet in an astrological chart, IMHO. If that was so, all future mother should have Neptune in the 3rd. In fact, the 6th would be far more telling of an enslaving someone to look after another causing the former emotional discomfort and possibly long term damage. The 6/12 would be activated and most probably the rulers would show the shadowy situation of serving (6) and self-undoing (12), IMHO.

The situation here of Neptune in 3rd and siblings is interesting, but I feel it would have to relate to the parents as well. Would that be planetary placements and tense aspects to planets in 4th and 10th? (or their rulers?)