Hebrew Alphabet & Tarot

[Richard]

"View Poll Results: Do you believe Tarot was originally based on the Hebrew alphabet?"

I would like to see a poll on the infuence of these poll results:

Did the yes people force you reconsider your position.

Did you change your position after seeing the results? elaborate.

ect.

That would be interesting.

I might change my position merely for the sake of perversity. I generally hate being on winning side of a landslide victory since I tend to root for the underdog on principle.

 

[Yygdrasilian]

The Wolf of Metals

The question has ever been one of where the 'cipher' belongs, if at all. Yet, if you know not the hidden function of Hebrew, how could you ever assess whether it shared an affinity with Tarot? It's easy to presume there is no riddle to solve if you remain ignorant of how allegories were spun from the hieroglyphs of old.

I've a theory on this subject of which I've noticed a conspicuous silence from you lot. And I'm fairly certain some of you were already aware of at least some of it. So- what gives?
http://tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=204421

 

[Cartomancer]

"View Poll Results: Do you believe Tarot was originally based on the Hebrew alphabet?"
I would like to see a poll on the influence of these poll results:
Did the yes people force you reconsider your position.
Did you change your position after seeing the results? elaborate. ect.

Here is a snapshot of the poll on Jan 5, 2014

View Poll Results: Do you believe Tarot was originally based on the Hebrew alphabet?
Yes: 3 = 4.55%
No: 51 = 77.27%
It seems likely, even if unproven: 4 = 6.06%
I don't know: 8 = 12.12%
Voters: 66
------------------------------------------------------------------
These poll results were from when I posted a summary of the thread and my opinion:
http://www.tarotforum.net/showpost.php?p=3788978&postcount=74

This snapshot can be compared to the current poll (January 11, 2014) results:

View Poll Results: Do you believe Tarot was originally based on the Hebrew alphabet?
Yes: 3 = 3.66%
No: 64 = 78.05%
It seems likely, even if unproven: 4 = 4.88%
I don't know: 11 = 13.41%
Voters: 82.

 

[trzes]

Well they CERTAINLY believed that the sun revolved around the earth.... Galileo suffered BIG time over that.

Hold on, does this statement imply that you don't share this belief position??? Ok, I'll try to be serious. Think of a poll like this: What do you believe is the shape of earth?
1) flat
2) spherical
3) the back of tortoise
4) dunno, what do you mean by "earth"

All that is required is a belief position to answer this, and I am sure that you have an opinion on that. A least I do. Even though I am sure that there is no such thing as knowledge, strictly speaking.

Anyway, my issue with the actual poll from this thread is a different one: The set of possible answers is biased because it doesn't contain the answer "it seems unlikely, even if unproven" that would make it symmetrical and thus fair. And this is the answer I would have given if it had been a choice.

That's why: Many arguments are given in this thread that make it unlikely to assume a common connection with the hebrew alphabet. As far as I read the posts here (less than half of them admittedly) they show the lack of any positive evidence for the people of the time to be familar with the hebrew alphabet or any mystical stuff around it. Following these arguments there is little reason to assume that the people who invented the trumps had anything like kabbalah in mind.

But I didn't see any strong argument to exclude it either. Unlike a poll about tarot trumps having been based on the periodic table of chemical elements for example: that could be excluded with much more confidence. No such thing was known to anybody at the time. Nothing has been reported at all that anyone had the slightest idea about how atoms are build or that atoms even exist, all of which would have been required to build this table. Clear case that. But the hebrew alphabet did exist. All kinds of mysticism did exist. And the people who invented the trumps were sort of obscure. At least they were odd enough to include a female pope, which sounds like quite some heresy to me. It seems no way impossible to me that they included other obscure stuff like the hebrew alphabet connection as well.

To my limited knowledge this idea sounds unlikely since no evidence is available for it, but it can't be ruled out either.

Or did I miss important bits of information? This is no rhetorical question. Please correct me if I am wrong and I will be happy to switch to a firm "no".

 

[gregory]

My objections throughout have been PRIMARILY semantic, trzes.

But belief is different from fact. The Galileo post was in response to someone who pointed out (rightly) that the flat earth one didn't hold up. The Galileo one did; they proved their point based on the available knowledge and evidence at the time. I may or may not believe that myself... I believe a lot of stuff - it saves time !

What I am saying is that what we KNOW (as evidenced by Ross) is that Gebelin said what he did in 1781. We cannot know that no-one had ever said it before him; we may later discover evidence that someone did, but we still won't know that THAT person was first, either. We CANNOT prove that no-one bunged the Hebrew alphabet stuff in there at the start.

So I agree with you. And probably with Galileo

 

[Cartomancer]

However
YOU believe a connection can be demonstrated. Given that I don't actually think it can be proved either way, to go on and say that doesn't really hold up. If the letters weren't there at the start (and I don't actually think they were, myself, though I still say there's no evidence) they don't add a level of meaning in and of themselves.

Yes, I do believe that a connection between the Hebrew alphabet and the tarot trumps can be demonstrated although I don't think that connection has yet been demonstrated.

Another way of looking at this question is to ask: "Do you believe that the Hebrew alphabet and the tarot trumps are based on a common source?"

I believe that the tarot trumps, the Hebrew alphabet, the Mayan Day Names, as well as the Chinese ten stems and twelve branches are linked. I also believe that there are close connections between the early alphabet and Egyptian writing, which has been proven.

I can agree that there is no evidence of a connection between the Hebrew alphabet and tarot trumps, but if we look for a common source for these two systems then we may find clues that lead to the decipherment of the tarot. Finding that common system that predates both the tarot trumps and the Hebrew alphabet will give information about what is being drawn and or described in the alphabet letters or tarot trump pictures.

But I am puzzled by the 7 people who answered "Yes" or "Likely". Why does anyone still feel the need to believe that the Tarot trump sequence was designed with the Hebrew alphabet in mind?

Most of the answers were made years ago, so perhaps the few of us who answered "Yes" or "Likely" would change our votes if given another chance, but I wouldn't change my vote. I actually don't believe that the tarot trump sequence was designed with the Hebrew alphabet in mind, but it could have been. If both the tarot trumps and the Hebrew alphabet were based on the same set of symbols, then could you say that the tarot trumps were based on the Hebrew alphabet since we know that the Hebrew alphabet wasn't based on the tarot trumps?

First, there is no reason to believe it - there is no evidence at all.

There is no evidence to support a link between the tarot trumps and the Hebrew alphabet at the time of the creation of the tarot trumps, but could there have been an unknown connection? Could there have been a list of figures or pile of pictures that had connections to the Hebrew alphabet, but the artist wasn't aware of the connection?
- Lance

Secondly, the cards do not depict the Hebrew alphabet or the meaning of its letters in either Jewish or Christian tradition.

It is obvious that the tarot trumps do not picture Hebrew alphabet letters, but is it also true that the Hebrew alphabet letter meanings aren't incorporated in the pictures? If there are secret or forgotten meanings associated with the letters or the tarot trumps, then more could be fathomed.
- Lance

There remains only the coincidence of the number 22, and the traditions of occult teaching for the last 2 centuries - which themselves are based on this coincidence of number, and the two main traditions (French and English) don't agree on the assignations.

I can happily report that I don't agree with the assignations of the two main traditions.
-Lance

There is also the question of why the Trumps exist as they do in the first place. Fool does not equate with the "ox" of Aleph, neither does the Magician. An Empress isn't a door, and most women I have seen aren't either.

It is my opinion that the Magician does equate with the "ox" of Aleph, but that the Fool does not correspond with the "ox" of Aleph. The meanings of the Hebrew letters can be compared to the meanings of the tarot trumps and similarities and differences can be found. Epigraphic analysis of the alphabet and the tarot trumps should yield connections that support a common origin, but it is not as easy to prove that the tarot trumps are based on the Hebrew alphabet.

Those who voted "Yes" to the question may have stronger reasons than those who voted "No" since the evidence or lack of it supports the "No" position. A "Yes" vote may indicate support for a particular tradition, such as the Golden Dawn. A "Yes" vote may indicate that the voter heard about the connection and believed it at the time of the voting. A "Yes" vote may indicate that the voter has investigated the subject and has come to conclusions that support the "Yes" position. Those voting "No" have little or no respect for the "Yes" vote for the above stated reasons and for the most part cannot see how a "Yes" vote could be supported.

Since the burden of proof lies upon those voting "Yes", one would have to ask where that proof would be found or where should it be found?

Is this a Historical Research question or should a theory about the Hebrew alphabet and the tarot trumps be in the Kabbalah and Alphabets section?

Looking in the Kabbalah and Alphabets section I found the following link about this subject:
Hebrew letter correlations
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21452
Many links in the Kabbalah and Alphabets section that deal with the subject are broken:
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=11847

For Hebrew, a dead language, to trickle into mainstream European culture, either through texts or word of mouth, become part of a game and be seemingly so ubiquitous, there would have to be overwhelming evidence, since no culture exists in a vacuum. And I'm not talking about the odd word or book, but reams of information should exist for such a cultural impact to make any sense.

The point here is not that the Hebrew language is connected to the tarot trumps, but that the Hebrew alphabet. The tarot tradition could have begun from a single source that didn't involve reams of information, at least not available to us at present time. We also have to keep in mind that we may not yet be able to recognize the pertinent information when we first see it. Many researchers look for evidence in the format that they expect and may not have the opportunity or inclination to investigate other avenues of research.
- Lance

I imagine that most of the people who answered the poll are self-selected and therefore have an informed opinion, relatively speaking at least, of the subject, which is why it heartened me. It means that the propaganda is working. The message is that the Hebrew alphabet and the implications of Kabbalah and all the other stuff that makes people's heads spin and their imaginations take flights to giddying heights was not part of the inventor of the trump sequence's intention.

The propaganda is working, but it is false. Having an informed opinion about this question will evidently lead to a "No" response because the voters are for the most part self-selected and have come to their opinions through careful considerations. Some cite the GD or other sources for the reasons for their disbelief, but the question is focused on the beginning of the tarot.
- Lance

Try the reverse method to see if it casts any light on the positive formulation -
If someone is wrong for the right reasons, are they still wrong?
It irks that way, doesn't it? If someone has right reasoning, surely their thinking will be right.

Perhaps some of those who voted "No" did so with all the valid and right reasons yet made a wrong choice or formed an invalid opinion based on factors such as lack of information or even misunderstanding of the question. Those people will continue to believe they are right until their thinking changes somehow.

So the only way to test the quality of our poll results is for each voter to give their reasons. We can only accept those that display a mastery of the relevant data. So - how do we decide what is objectively relevant?

Yes, back to authority, as is the case in all moral questions.

In regard to my reasons for my "Yes" vote, I have previously stated them without providing actual proof or support. If we only accept those votes or voters who have a mastery of the relevant data, I also ask how do we decide what is objectively relevant? I have had training in the investigation of the relevant data (Hebrew alphabet) and can support what I talk about regarding this subject:
"The Alphabet and the Ancient Calendar Signs - Book Review"
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=202558

So, who are the authorities in this subject? Those who have actually researched the topic or those who adopt a new "common wisdom" based on where the herd is going? There is still a lot to explore in this question from what I have read so far in this thread.

- Lance Carter (Cartomancer)

 

[Richard]

There is no reason to agonize over it. When the issue comes up, I usually say something like this: "As far as I know, there is no historical evidence that the Tarot trumps were based on the Hebrew alphabet."

According to historical methodology, I think the above is sufficient to justify a 'No' answer. (I invite Ross to correct me if this is wrong.) It is not like a mathematical proof, which is logically irrefutable, but it suffices for a working historical model.

However, I remain open regarding possible esoteric influences in the development of Tarot. As Scion conceded in his review of Christine Payne-Towler's The Underground Stream: Esoteric Tarot Revealed, "I do believe that Decker and Dummett were too cautious; Tarot does seem to draw on something occult." (Scion's review is really worth a read, by the way, even if you are not interested in Payne-Towler's extravagantly creative version of Tarot history.)

 

[Yygdrasilian]

Was Saint Ambrose a Jerk?

Again, how can one assess whether the Hebrew letters inspired Tarot if one remains ignorant of the ancient esoteric practice of building mandalas out of alphabets, or of how the allegories of antiquity were spun from that artifice. Being ignorant of how the sequence of Hebrew letters gives rise to a 'book of forms', one is no position to judge whether or not they appear among the Tarot.

It could be argued that there is a hint of Hebrew oral tradition enfolded within the deck, poignantly characterizing our 'disagreement' over this topic.

22 = 0: 'Kesil'
7 = 16: 'Tower'

But, as it only becomes visible to one who sees where the cipher belongs, it is easy to be persuaded by the 'propaganda'. Thus, I wonder- how is it that such a tediously rational analytic philosopher as Michael Dummett could, in the 20th century, have sincerely been a devout Roman Catholic? It seems such a contradiction. Naturally, the 'one true church' might not appreciate some of the secrets buried at the crossroads of Tarot & Kabbalah coming to light. And Crowley, whatever your opinion of his character, did make it possible for a wider audience to access those 'secrets'.

Of course, by that logic...

 

[ravenest]

Hold on, does this statement imply that you don't share this belief position??? Ok, I'll try to be serious. Think of a poll like this: What do you believe is the shape of earth?
1) flat
2) spherical
3) the back of tortoise
4) dunno, what do you mean by "earth"

Classic example of a poll; the real choice is left out although 4) is close.

I would add 5) what do you mean by "the shape of earth" ?

The shape of earth is any shape it is or any shape I or anyone else form it into. However 'What is the shape of the Earth?' is a different question. This is why I cant and wont do 90% of polls.

Oh, you are being to literal ... am I? Oh, everyone knows what the question means !

Do they? ... No. Everyone ASSUMES the meaning of the question.

Here is an old classic one used to demonstrate; Water boils at 100 deg C. - true of false?

Most polls IMO are little more than a game ... and that's why we like to do them

 

[trzes]

The shape of earth is any shape it is or any shape I or anyone else form it into. However 'What is the shape of the Earth?' is a different question.

Meh, picking on the poor non-native's bad English isn't fair

BTW that's why the human brain is such a hugely complex thing: because it is perfectly able to unravel all these ambiguities by applying some context information. Context rulez! No need to be afraid of a playful poll because of that.

I am happy to participate in every future poll. Well ok, mainly because I am strong-opinioned, even when it's only about whether I partly don't know or I really don't know.