Padma
Oh, no! I didn't think you were aiming your comments at me! I was just in agreement with you. And I, too, hate to see that card trivialised...
The lovers - a backside?
Oh, no! I didn't think you were aiming your comments at me! I was just in agreement with you. And I, too, hate to see that card trivialised...
Krystophe
Interpreting the Lovers as "a choice" is one of my two biggest pet peeves! (The other is referring to the 9 of Cups as "the wish card," but that's a subject for another thread...)
Of course this may just be an indicator that I'm taking Tarot much too seriously and need to consider venturing out of my lair more often........
Of course this may just be an indicator that I'm taking Tarot much too seriously and need to consider venturing out of my lair more often........
Barleywine
To be honest, with modern decks I've never liked the simplistic concept of "choice" either, which is why I expanded it into the "crossroads" analogy. Any spiritual crossroads worth its salt implies a life-altering opportunity, whether brought on by crisis or serendipity. It sometimes makes me think of Robert Frost's wistful and mildly regretful poem:
http://www.bartleby.com/119/1.html
http://www.bartleby.com/119/1.html
Padma
Perhaps! I use the word choice, since watershed moment can be hard to explain to some people. It's not a common reference. I think I will adopt the word commitment, thanks for that!
As for the greedy and patronizing 9 Cups being a "wish card" -
it's most certainly not. 
Krystophe
Excellent poetic reference, Barleywine.
I also like Picasso's observation that Every act of creation [the very essence of "choice," no?] is first of all an act of destruction to capture the momentous nature of the issue.
Flames
Speaking of crossroads...
Yesterday, I was watching a movie and some of it was with English subtitles. When it came to the word 'crossroads', I noticed the character had said, "Crucifixo' - which means Crucifix or Cross. Where two points meet, we get a cross - or a burden - to bear. That's how I see the Lovers Card. You're literally standing at that point where the two pieces of wood (or whatever) meet or intersect. There's a heaviness in the mix, a real sense of gravity about the situation. What do you do at this 'point'? That seems to be the question or one I've asked myself when the Lovers shows up. Without getting too religious, but it's where 'father' and 'son' connect with the 'holy spirit', or where flesh and spirit dwell as one. It's as if anything and everything else pales in comparison. You feel 'stuck', unable to move. Though 'choice' is very much connected to this card, it sometimes feels as though you're not 'able' to make a choice - between this or that thing. Sometimes, it feels as though that's not even the 'point' (no pun intended).
Standing at that crossroads or bearing the cross, to me, IS what the Lovers card is all about. It's feeling the weight of that thing knowing you may or may not go for or get what your heart desires. Sometimes, it's not about what we want but about what's 'right'. I think it's in that space where we discover who we really are and what an 'other' means to us.
Yesterday, I was watching a movie and some of it was with English subtitles. When it came to the word 'crossroads', I noticed the character had said, "Crucifixo' - which means Crucifix or Cross. Where two points meet, we get a cross - or a burden - to bear. That's how I see the Lovers Card. You're literally standing at that point where the two pieces of wood (or whatever) meet or intersect. There's a heaviness in the mix, a real sense of gravity about the situation. What do you do at this 'point'? That seems to be the question or one I've asked myself when the Lovers shows up. Without getting too religious, but it's where 'father' and 'son' connect with the 'holy spirit', or where flesh and spirit dwell as one. It's as if anything and everything else pales in comparison. You feel 'stuck', unable to move. Though 'choice' is very much connected to this card, it sometimes feels as though you're not 'able' to make a choice - between this or that thing. Sometimes, it feels as though that's not even the 'point' (no pun intended).
Standing at that crossroads or bearing the cross, to me, IS what the Lovers card is all about. It's feeling the weight of that thing knowing you may or may not go for or get what your heart desires. Sometimes, it's not about what we want but about what's 'right'. I think it's in that space where we discover who we really are and what an 'other' means to us.
Barleywine
And then there is the story of blues-music icon Robert Johnson selling his soul to the Devil at a crossroads in order to be able to master the guitar.
Krystophe
Flames, this is brilliant! Your post, while not a direct response to me, is a perfect expression of the energy I understand this card to symbolize. "The weight of the thing" is a phrase that will most certainly stay with me.
Although I'm not the original poster of this thread, I'd like to thank you for such an enlightening response!
Saskia
I don't think the Lovers is a choice as in a selection or mechanically pick an option.
It's more of a decision to do something/live according to what truly resonates with your core (or soul). I think the Lovers is a magnetic pull that draws the querent towards something, be it a thought, belief, value framework, person, situation or job. It's "falling in love" with something or someone because it simply feels right, fits the best, resonates the most.
However, this doesn't mean that the gut feeling is always correct and that's why the Devil is associated with the Lovers. Is the magnetic pull born from egoistic reasons, such as fear, lust, selfishness, codependency, pride etc.? If yes, it's more about the Devil than the authentic, genuine Lovers.
In relationships, this card doesn't necessarily promise happily ever after, because it can mean for example:
- one person being sure about the decision but the other one not
- the pair having to decide whether it's really authentic or born from selfish reasons
- the pair acknowledging that the magnetic pull is there, but they can't make it work in practice for myriads of reasons.
It's more of a decision to do something/live according to what truly resonates with your core (or soul). I think the Lovers is a magnetic pull that draws the querent towards something, be it a thought, belief, value framework, person, situation or job. It's "falling in love" with something or someone because it simply feels right, fits the best, resonates the most.
However, this doesn't mean that the gut feeling is always correct and that's why the Devil is associated with the Lovers. Is the magnetic pull born from egoistic reasons, such as fear, lust, selfishness, codependency, pride etc.? If yes, it's more about the Devil than the authentic, genuine Lovers.
In relationships, this card doesn't necessarily promise happily ever after, because it can mean for example:
- one person being sure about the decision but the other one not
- the pair having to decide whether it's really authentic or born from selfish reasons
- the pair acknowledging that the magnetic pull is there, but they can't make it work in practice for myriads of reasons.
Padma
Everything you said was of interest, Saskia, but this exceptionally stood out for me! (personal reasons and TMI and all that - won't go into it, but I think you hit this one out of the ballpark!)
