Question for Mehrdad
Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 29 Mar 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.
||05 Apr 2002 |
The story of Tarot in Persia or Iran goes far back to about 4000 years ago or even more. Long Before Cyrus, the father of Persia, created a country called Persia, the people who were living where the Persia is now were called Sumerians.
Sumerians, according to historians, created the first civilizations on Earth. Along with Sumerians there were a certain group of people who were used to be called the “people of Shem” or as they are known today, Semitic people. They were called “the people of Shem” because these people had the occupation of protector of religious temples that were made to look like Shem.
So Semitism or Judaism has its root in Persia and in a way they were the first Persians before the arrival of Arians from Europe to Persia. Tarot is a divinity that has its roots in Summer, where Abraham was born around 2123 B.C. Abraham’s father was a famous priest in the old Persia who was called “Terah” (Fate speaker or the pronouncer of Oracles). Abraham’s father was called “Terah” because as a priest his job was to convey to people the wishes of god. Terah, was a priest who was the only one allowed onto the temple’s innermost chamber to receive the god’s word and he had a son called, ABRAM ("Father's Beloved").
Of course we all know that when Abram was selected by God to become a prophet, at that time his name was changed from ABRAM (father’s beloved) to ABRAHAM (the father of multitudes) and that of his wife SARAI ("Princess") was changed to Sarah.
So as you can see the Judaism in a way was initiated in Persia. I am sure we all also know about Danielle who had his famous dreams where he was born, an old city in the old Persia.
I think I answered your question as far as Judaism in Iran is concerned. Now let me explain a little about the Tarot and its root in Persia.
As I mentioned in above discussion, the people of Shem had this profession to convey the coming future events by going into the Sumerian temple, which was build to look like a Shem. A Shem is a structure that looked very much like a rocket. When I was a child my father once took me to Shiraz (an old Persian city) and showed me one of these structures. It is said that a priest had 22 tablets given to him by gods (Sumerian had 12 gods and god of gods was called Anan) and such a priest by arranging these tables in a special way and at a special time was able to forecast the coming disasters, rain, famine, and on and on. These tablets also were used to find a good time to get married, grow sustenance and other social events.
||05 Apr 2002 |
|Mehrdad, I know you can explain this better than I can, I only know the basic bits of it: Would you please tell us about the source of our "Judeo-Christian" idea of hell? :)
||06 Apr 2002 |
I have not been in Iran for more than twenty-three years, so I have no first hand knowledge about what you asked. However, when I was there I had no understanding about Tarot (but I was just a child). I remember that my aunt was extremely good at reading coffee cup, and she had many people coming to her for advice. After reading my coffee cup she also predicted that I would leave Iran for USA long before the unexpected events and circumstances forced me to do just that.
Recently there was a piece of news in a paper reporting that a Persian lady, who is also a coffee cup reader, predicted the coming earthquake in El Salvador. In fact she was so sure about it that by placing an advertisement in a local paper, she asked people to evacuate the area. She also left her home exactly twenty-four hours before the event. The paper reported that now she has become so known that famous people and others making appointment to see her. So according to my own experience and information, coffee reading is very popular in Iran.
||06 Apr 2002 |
I honestly have no idea or knowledge about the question that you have put to me, but a Jewish friend of mine once told me that The Christian idea of the hell came out from the ancient Hebrew concept of Sheol. She told me that Sheol means "underworld" and is based on the concept of a mass grave. I believe there is little mention about hell in Torah, but by passing time it seemed that god just became “despondent” about His creation, so at the time of Christ, god suddenly decided to put people in hell.
In Islam this concept gets even bigger center stage and in every other word, God mentions about Hell in so many words. In any case, I think the interesting question is to understand when and why the concept of hell and heaven entered the man’s consciousness, and I think I have an answer about this question. However, I do not think this is the proper forum to talk about that.
||07 Apr 2002 |
|I guess I've dragged us off topic now, but my understanding is that the Jewish and Christian idea of hell originated in Zoroastrianism.
||07 Apr 2002 |
|To Diana and Qolus|
What I am about to write probably would shock and anger a lot of people, thus perhaps I better put it under an unknown title so not too many people see and read it. I am just a curious individual who is always searching for the root and cause of things and I should add that I do believe in God with all my heart.
Surely Zoroastrian concept of God and Evil and Heaven and Hell had a great influence on all other religions that followed it, but the main question is where Persian got this idea. Persia has a history that goes back to two thousands years before the birth of Christ, but Egyptian development goes even further than that. Egyptian empire started about 3100 B.C. two millennium before the beginning of Hellenic society. However, Akkadian kingdom goes much farther than Egyptian’s by a full thousand years. But the oldest of all these is the Mesopotamian (the land between two rivers) civilization and they have the oldest known religious text called, “Enuma Elish” (When in the heights).
More than a century ago, archeologists found this amazing text that goes back to more than 7000 years ago and they called it “The Creation Epic”, they named it that because it became obvious to all those who study it that all other religious books has emulated this astonishing story of creation. In Enuma Elish, one can find the source of all the mysterious about God and Evil, Heaven and Hell, the story of creation of man and woman and why, the tale of the flood, and everything else that connect us to a higher power called God.
Enuma Elish start with these sentences,
When in the heights heaven had not been named,
And below, Earth had not been called.
Enuma Elish goes on to tell us the incredible account of a group of gods who came to Earth by a Shem (literary and pictorially means, Rocket) and landed in a land called “Eden” between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers in the Persian Golf. These gods were encompassing two major gods, called Anu and Enki and several lesser gods. Anu stayed in Heaven, upper world and Enki resided on Earth, lower world. Anu was the god of Heaven and everything above, and Enki (his sign is a serpent, and later I explain why) was the god of Earth and everything below.
Enki and his surrounding gods stayed in the Eden and all other lesser gods started to work in the heart of Africa and underground to extract minerals and gold in particular. However, those who had the hard work of underground exertion complained to Anu, the god of heaven, about their toiling and backbreaking labor so much so that finally Anu, commissioned Enki, the god of Earth, to create a primitive worker out of the existing manlike creatures that were wondering on Earth at that time. This is how Enki in the Enuma Elish phrases his job.
“I will produce a lowly Primitive; Man shall be his name.
I will create a Primitive Worker; He will be charged with the service of the gods, that they might have their ease.”
In a sense, these gods created man not to worship them but to work for them. In Bible, Koran, we see similar words.
“ And the Lord God took the Man and placed him in the Garden of Eden to till it and to tend it.”
Later on Enki in the assembly of gods, explains that he would create such a primitive worker by mixing the blood of one of the gods and the genes of manlike creatures. And in the Bible (Genesis) we read: “And Elohim said: Let us make Man in our image, after our likeness.” Make special attention to the plural word, “Let us”.
So Enki goes on to produce his creation by mixing this assortment in clay. In Enuma Elish, Enki states: “ Mix to a core the clay from the basement of Earth, just above the Abzu- and shape it into the form of a core. I shall provide good, knowing young gods who will bring that clay to the right condition.” In the second chapter of Genesis we read: “And Yahweh, Elohim, fashioned the Adam of the clay of the soil; and He blew in his nostrils the breath of life, and the Adam turned into living Soul.” “Elohim created the Adam in His image- in the image of Elohim created He him. Male and female created He them.”
According to Enuma Elish, Enki places this mixture into the womb of seven young goddesses in the hope of increasing the chances of success. “While the Birth Goddess is present, let the Birth Goddess fashion offspring. Let the Birth Goddess fashion a primitive worker.”
I am sorry this is becoming too long; let me continue this at a later time if God permits.
||08 Apr 2002 |
Originally posted by mehrdad
What I am about to write probably would shock and anger a lot of people, thus perhaps I better put it under an unknown title so not too many people see and read it.
I fervently hope no one here will be upset by the notion that Big Ideas descend through different cultures and carry on in mutated forms. This seems natural and normal to me, part of human evolution.
If you're willing, mehrdad, please continue your post when you get the chance. Thank you again. :)
||08 Apr 2002 |
|thank you mehrdad... postings like yours are why I enjoy this forum|
||09 Apr 2002 |
|Thank you Qolus and Pedeka for encouraging words, this definitely make it easier for me to talk about the ‘Truth’ as it had been handed to us from the wisdom of the past. The fact is that if I write about these maters in Iran, the country that I was born, I will surely be shoot down by the criminal mullahs, so my inhibition and my cautious approach is a habit that goes back to my childhood.|
As I discussed in my previous post, because of heavy work that the lesser gods had to do in “the land of mines in Africa”, in an assembly of gods it is decided to create an intelligent worker to do the heavy work. Seven young goddesses are chosen and the mixture consisting of the blood of a young god and the genetic structure of the manlike creature, already existed on Earth, are then placed in their wombs. In Enuma Elish it is stated that six of the young goddesses gave birth to deformed children and only one of the goddesses produced the desired product, which was the first man.
And also as we talked about, god, both in the Bible and Koran states that he created man from a mixture of clay and mud and then breathed his soul into him. I gave you the Bible version but since I do not want to be accused of taking side, let me give you the Koran version before we go on. In Koran this is how it describes the essence of man creation.
[15.26] And certainly We created man of clay that gives forth sound, of black mud fashioned in shape.
[23.12] And certainly We created man of an extract of clay,
Koran in a lot way is very similar to the old testament so If I talk about what Bible says be assure that the same thing is being said in the holy book of Moslems, Koran, and vise versa so to make this tale shorter, from now and on I would only refer to one of these holy books to make my points.
So Enki (the god of Earth) mixes a godly element with an earthly one to make the Adam. In Enuma Elish, the godly element is described as an “essence” derived from a god’s blood, and the earthly element as “clay” or “mud”. In another word, mixing of the “divine” genes of a god by fertilizing the egg (Earthly) of an Apewoman made Adam. All of these as it explained in Enuma Elish took place in Africa (“the land of mines”), where also according to science the Homo Sapience (intelligent man) for the first time was suddenly appeared. In fact Adam was the first tube baby.
According to Enuma Elish, the goddess who successfully gave birth to first man was herself the chief medical officer of gods and her name was “Mammi” (the source of the universal Mamma/Mother). In Enuma Elish we read that after the baby was born successfully, Enki Shouted with joy and pride of a scientist to the other gods:
“I have created! My hands have made it! You commanded me a task and I have completed it. I have removed your heavy work, I have imposed your toil on The Worker, ‘Man.’ you raised a cry for a Worker-kind: I have loosed the yoke, I have provided your freedom.” The other gods received this announcement enthusiastically. “They ran together and they said, From then on it would be the Primitive Worker- Man- who will bear the yoke.” However, as we will see later they were wrong.
These gods having arrived on Earth to set up their colonies had create their own brand of slavery by creating the “Primitive Worker” fashioned in their own image.
In Enuma Elish it is stated that Enki (the serpent) and Mammy (Ninti or Nanny, her other names) are husband and wife so like any other good parents they fell in love with their tube baby and instead of leaving Adam to work in the mines with other lesser gods, they took him back to Eden in the Persian Golf, and they taught him, mathematics, language, and science. They also taught him how to till the land in Eden. In the Bible we also see the same thing:
“And the Lord God took the “Man” and placed him in the Garden of Eden to till it and to tend it.”
Similarly in Koran, we read:
[2.31] And He (Allah) taught Adam all the names (Mathematics, language, and science).
At this time the lesser gods who are disappointed, again complained to Anu (The god of above) about this situation.
I am truly sorry, but this is going much longer than I anticipated. Please bear with me and I promised that I would finish this in a couple of more posts, if God permits.
||09 Apr 2002 |
|Mehrdad, thank you for your contribution to this forum.
||09 Apr 2002 |
|Dear Diana and arizonagirl, I thank you for your very kind words, I hope I deserve all these kindness.|
Holy books sometimes seem to be trying to confuse the individuals who are reading them. There are certain versions that while telling the same story but these stories appears to contradict each other. A good example can be found in Genesis- 1:26-27. According to this account, “God said, Let us make men in our image, after our likeness”; then the suggestion was carried out: “And God created man in his own image, “in the image of God created He him; male and female created He them.” This biblical account is further complicate by the tale in Chapter 2, according to which “The Adam” was alone until God provided him with a female counterpart, created of Adam’s rib.
Here we have the problem of pluralism. Did god created both male and female at the beginning as it is clearly suggested at the first version, or the second version is correct and God only made Adam? This apparent discrepancy and inconsistency exist because the holy books such as Koran or Bible do not tell us the whole story. They just pick a certain still image of a completed tale. In Enuma Elish there are no irregularity and the story moves quite natural and the reader understand with clarity what is really happening.
After his parents, Enki and Ninti, bring Adam back to Eden, other gods who were still looking for replacement workers to do their work for them contacted the god of heaven, Anu, and they asked once more for help. Anu requests for a clarification from Enki and Enki respond that he needs Adam as a model for the future production of the worker beings. So Enki and Ninti or Mammi started to engineer a genetic procedure to come up with seven males and seven females at a time. Before I go on I should explain that number 7 has a special meaning for these gods (also for us) and if time permits I would later explain why.
In Enuma Elish we read the description if this procedure as follow:
“Ninti nipped off fourteen pieces of Clay, Seven she deposited on the right, Seven she deposited on the left; between them she placed the mold. The wise and learned, double-seven birth-goddesses had assembled. Seven brought forth males, Seven brought forth females; the birth-goddesses brought forth the Wind of the Breath of Life.”
So Enki and his wife Ninti, two great scientists of gods, created fourteen more workers, seven males and seven females. And this procedure was engineered in a lab called by Enuma Elish as ‘where the Wind of Life is breathed into’. So as you can see there are no contradictions in the Bible and after Adam was created god(s) really created men and women in his own image. The Adam was created by himself; but then, in the next phase, the Elohim or Allah (Elohim and Allah both are plural and have exactly the same meaning) indeed created the first humans ‘male and female.”
According to Enuma Elish this “mass production” of primitive workers was repeated many times, but gods are clamoring for more. In the same text we also learn that in time, tiring of the constant need for Birth Goddesses, Enki became engaged in a second genetic manipulation to enable the hybrid people to produce on their own. I heated when I need to become technical to further substantiate my points, but sometimes I have no choice. I try to do that less often as it is possible.
As those who have a basic knowledge about the biology know, when two different genetic group of species are crossbreed the resulting being would be unable to produce offspring. For example mule, which is the artificial mating of a mare and a donkey is incapable of reproduction.
Artificial insemination, even of a female human egg, is now possible. The real challenge lies in cross-fertilization between different species. Modern science has come a long way from the development of the first hybrid corns, or the mating of Alaskan dogs with wolves, or the “creation” of the mule, to the ability to manipulate Man’s own production and cloning. But the art of genetic engineering is not limited to one process. Researchers have perfected a process called “cell fusion,” making it possible to fuse cells rather than combine chromosomes within a single cell. As a result of such a process, cells from different sources can be fused into one “supercell,” holding within itself two nuclei and a double set of the paired chromosomes. When this cell splits, the mixture of nuclei and chromosomes may split in a pattern different from that of each cell before the fusion. The result can be two new cells, each genetically complete, but each with a brand-new set of genetic codes.
This means that for example the cells of a chicken and that of a mouse-can be fused to form new cells with brand-new genetic mixes that produce new animals that are neither chickens nor mice as we know them.
This is how the Adam was created and later in Enuma Elish we learn another procedure needing a bone marrow operation that was done on Adam to produce a female capable of reproduction, and this is when Man got into trouble with Anu, the god of heaven, and was forced to leave Eden.
Continues, if god permits.
The Question for Mehrdad thread was originally posted on 29 Mar 2002 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.