Reviews of tarot decks and books (split from Wow! never had.. slating)

Posts 44/45/46 interest me.
Although this is not to do with this thread.
How does one deal with secret squirrel flaming?
I refuse to put the poster on block.
Some people are very clever at disguising the flame under knowledge about a subject.
I resort to sarcasm- which is not helpful- but I do not know how else to deal with it. It really does make a thread crappy, but sometimes it is so unfair that some sort of response is needed. Then 'a history' between posters starts, and interferes wherever they post. ( I am including myself here)

To the subject- some while ago I started a deck and posted my images here.
I got very nice but unhelpful comments.
There were some glaring mistakes in quality and format.
No one critiqued the work. They praised it- which was very nice and flattering, but I wanted honest opinion on the work itself.
So I removed it and took the series to someone privately, who helped immensely.
So there is another side of the debate on critique.
~Rosanne

There have been many times during my 6 years hanging around AT when people I cared about a great deal described to me various "political" problems they were experiencing here on the forum.

I'm sure we've all seen people leave, and some people leave and start new forums, and some just leave. I've been really really lucky, and have actually sent grateful prayers up to whatever god or goddess must have been watching over me all this time, because in 6 years of fairly off the wall opinions and generally off-beat expressions of my rather...unique...sensibility, I haven't been made aware that I've upset anyone.

I've mentioned this privately to people who were telling me about their own problems on here, and gotten some interesting responses. A few friends suggested to me that I might simply be oblivious.

Well, if there are people I've offended, I'd prefer to know about it.

I think...

I really value my experience on the forum and I have always tried to value the opinions of others. However...if anyone does have any issues with me, I'd hope you''d tell me.

I read an AT'ers blog a few weeks ago and it was full of some venomous and angry, cruel sentiments towards some forum members. Mostly towards people I didn't know at all. It was extremely painful to read and I've been hoping the person who wrote it feels better ever since I read it.

What I'm trying to say is that we are all sensitive and bright individuals, and our feelings are obviously involved with our activities on this forum, or else we wouldn't be here.

I hope, always, for all of our sakes, that courtesy and respect hold a higher place than personal ego.

Rosanne said:

To the subject- some while ago I started a deck and posted my images here.
I got very nice but unhelpful comments.
There were some glaring mistakes in quality and format.
No one critiqued the work. They praised it- which was very nice and flattering, but I wanted honest opinion on the work itself.
So I removed it and took the series to someone privately, who helped immensely.
So there is another side of the debate on critique.
~Rosanne

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I suppose this, in a way, reinforces what I was trying to express. In the end, a public forum may not be the best place to get an honest critique - one way or the other. Taking it to somewhere smaller and more private may well work better and result in much more useful and in-depth commentaries.

I don't mean that people shouldn't post work here - it's great that they do. Just that it may be unrealistic to expect very much in the way of detailed comments. On a public forum people mostly DO want to be nice - even if that results in bland responses - and perhaps that's sensible of them.

When people criticise ATF as being full of uncritical cheerleaders they entirely miss this point. On a public forum (particularly a large one like ATF) it makes sense to be mostly positive and polite - that's just showing good social skills. In private, other conversations take place. For instance, I met one deck artist here many years back and I now talk to her about once a fortnight by phone to discuss our work - we've done that for a long time. We know each other well enough now to be very straightforward about the issues and we both get a lot out of the conversations.

You can't judge the knowledge, attitude and forthrightness of forum members purely by what they say in public. As Scion says, some "notes" are far better given in private between friends.

In my personal opinion, while Forums like ATF are great places for certain kinds of discussions' on the whole in-depth criticisms of serious material willl not happen openly. What may (and according to baba's post does) happen is that those of like mind may 'meet' and be able to discuss in private. And, without a meeting place like this, possibly might never have known the other existed.

The other aspect is that serious discussion does happen in certain threads, often in the quieter corners of the Forums where only those truly interested travel. Even a large public square has semi-private nooks.

Reading these posts (and not being an artist myself) it seems that artists, one, must ultimately keep control of their own work or risk it being washed away or diluted in group-think, but that two, they do welcome thoughtful informed critiques.

The reviews that I read the most of are movie reviews, and if you read a certain group regularly, you get a feel for what they prefer and their biases. And no one can rise above those.

It has made me prefer sites like Rotten Tomatoes where they average dozens of reviews, effectively eliminating most reviewer bias, except possibly that entailed in reading each other's reviews.

I have noted, again just my opinion with my own biases, that those sharpest and most strident in criticism seem to be those (I speculate) most resentful of the ability of others to even carry an artistic project to conclusion.

Alta

Just as an example - what I would see as the IDEAL creation thread was actually almost a joke when it started.

Lillie's frogs.

Sorry to pick on one artist - but I happened to follow this one from day one !

Many commented. When people did criticise a card - it is there, though later in the thread - Lillie NEVER got defensive and offended. Sometimes she changed a card, sometimes she said no, sometimes she said she would if she could be bothered. IMHO partly because she didn't get prickly, and didn't see herself as someone special who must not be argued with because she was an Artist - which I know can be how it all makes you (generic !) feel when you are creating ! - nothing ever got nasty.

I realise that creating a deck can be hell. But it does sometimes seem that creating a deck can also make people feel that their deck is beyond criticism. All I would say about that is - if you DO feel like that - don't post the deck and ask for opinions here. You might GET them !

Yes - I have posted about some decks I have seen here that I don't like - some that I don't like AT ALL. I AM entitled to an opinion. But if I don't like a deck - that doesn't mean I think the artist is a crap person, that they are no use as an artist, or that I don't like them personally. Sometimes it seems that that is the way these things are taken - which is sad.

Alta said:

I have noted, again just my opinion with my own biases, that those sharpest and most strident in criticism seem to be those (I speculate) most resentful of the ability of others to even carry an artistic project to conclusion.

Alta

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There also may be some genuine lack of understanding about the social etiquette of forums. I had a friend some years back who was a Computer Science academic - of some repute. But he found it very, very hard to understand social norms. He was mildly Aspergers I would guess. I remember (how could I ever forget?) him greeting me across the room at one large conference by booming cheerfully, "My goodness, Karen, you do look fat these days!" He was not trying to be unkind, he was merely being - in his view - honest.

There will always be people who will get bothered and confused by the apparent bland politeness of others because they simply can't understand the social reasons for it. It's another reason why it's best to tread carefully in forums.

By the way, I also agree wholeheartedly that one of the most useful and enjoyable functions of a large forum like this is putting people in touch. And the strength and depth of the relationships that result won't always be apparent on the forum itself.

gregory said:

Many commented. When people did criticise a card - it is there, though later in the thread - Lillie NEVER got defensive and offended. Sometimes she changed a card, sometimes she said no, sometimes she said she would if she could be bothered. IMHO partly because she didn't get prickly, and didn't see herself as someone special who must not be argued with because she was an Artist - which I know can be how it all makes you (generic !) feel when you are creating ! - nothing ever got nasty.

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Gregory, I can't recall if you've viewed or participated on a thread about a project I'm working on. But I think you 'll find your example quite similar. I invited opinions, and got them. Mainly complimentary yes, but also doubts and dislikes. But they were all made in an appropriate manner, so I considered them seriously and on several occasions changed the cards accordingly.

Its nice when its like that, and a lot of good comes from it. However the tone of the dialogue isn't just dependent on the artist's (or deck supporters) sensitivity but also how the comments are initially put.

If wizard 123 or whatever they wish to call themselves want to be that blunt irrespective of who or what, yes that is their right but then its no great surprise if the responses and overall tone of the thread reflects that, and in those cases little good comes from it.

cirom said:

Gregory, I can't recall if you've viewed or participated on a thread about a project I'm working on. But I think you 'll find your example quite similar. I invited opinions, and got them. Mainly complimentary yes, but also doubts and dislikes. But they were all made in an appropriate manner, so I considered them seriously and on several occasions changed the cards accordingly.

Its nice when its like that, and a lot of good comes from it. However the tone of the dialogue isn't just dependent on the artist's (or deck supporters) sensitivity but also how the comments are initially put.

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To be honest, I have avoided discussion of your work since the wee debacle about 3 (?) years ago on a different thread.... you may recall it....? Nothing personal about YOU; more about some people who seemed to have it in for you - it led me to decide there would be no point saying anything - whichever way I might have said it ! and also - I can't stand that level of conflict !! It is both unpleasant and dull. You'll know I bought and still have both yours; that says enough, perhaps !!

Fair enough. I merely mentioned the thread as a means of appreciating your example and to demonstrate that it wasn't an isolated case.

On a side note, glad to hear you have both my decks, it would have been interesting to hear you comments of the new one as you would have had a reference point of comparison. But I respect your decision for whatever reason.

cirom said:

Fair enough. I merely mentioned the thread as a means of appreciating your example and to demonstrate that it wasn't an isolated case.

On a side note, glad to hear you have both my decks, it would have been interesting to hear you comments of the new one as you would have had a reference point of comparison. But I respect your decision for whatever reason.

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I'll have a look. Sooner or later....