Hellenistic Astrology

Minderwiz

kalliope said:
Ha! to the Goat Horns. I'm glad we can just say Capricorn, too. And Schmidt is SO right about us needing to cast out all of our preconceptions! I'm going to try my best to set aside my modern astrological knowledge when considering my chart's analysis in this thread. I can see that others have had trouble trying to reconcile their modern understanding with the Hellenistic viewpoint, and I think I'll actually grasp the method better if I don't try to do the same.

Yes, I started of using Delphic Oracle's built in analysis tool which is heavily Schmidt based. In retrospect I would have been much better following Chris Brennan's notes. We live and learn

Kalliope said:
Thanks for the comments about Delphic Oracle, and for mentioning the reduced price! If I were deciding between Janus and DO, and I know I'm interested in some medieval techniques, how do you think the battle between them shakes out? The dynamic charting function, and the Time Lord checks against transits, etc., sound great. I'm definitely wanting a program that makes it easiest to find times when transits, returns, progressions, or things like Time Lords, Profections, or Primary Directions overlap. With both modern and traditional methods in mind, I'd like to do a rough sketch of significant time periods coming up for myself and close friends, for observation and learning. It seems like DO would make this easiest. Am I correct?

You can download a copy of Janus on a monthly trial basis (and this used to be the case with DO, though I don't see that option now). My experience with Janus is through the trial option, so I didn't get to explore everything by any means. Janus does do the Medieval Firdaria, so it can do what you want in terms of showing time periods (the freebie Morinus can do the same). From memory Janus was the easier to get used to. I have a friend who rates Janus as the best for Traditional Astrology, though for Hellenistic Astrology per se, DO is unrivaled. Both allow the use of the outers and asteroids, so you can use both modern and traditional. DO though has a really 'messy' installation process it's not as easy as Janus by any stretch of the imagination and it comes with its own atlas, which is 'quirky' and gave me quite a few issues.

Incidentally there's a freebie based on DO called Aphesis, and I'll be suggesting that for people who want to do some of their own time periods using a Hellenisitic method. It's quite easy to install and use and therefoe it might give you a nice set of options when added to Janus.

Minderwiz

kalliope said:
Okay, I'm trying to understand how Fitness, Energy, and Completion are fitting together here. Looking at the comment I've bolded above, is the below-average Completion score enough to overshadow the high Fitness and Energy scores with the result being that Mars can only "support completion" while not really initiating OR completing them? What's the use of all that Fitness and Energy that it's got then? Or was that comment solely with regards to the Completion score, and the Fitness and Energy components will factor in some other way? Am I making sense?

This is one of the areas that I am trying to get my head round, so if the explanation changes, it's because I've found something new. Firstly I think the Fitness/Energy/Completion framework coves more than one dimension. Specifically it feeds into the Length of Life calculation, as well as the general assessment of planetary strength and the areas of life that we are more familiar with.

At the moment, I am not planning to cover the Length of Life as I don't fully understand it to say the least and I certainly am not going field questions about 'how long will I live'. According to some of the material I should have had a very short life. As I'm in my mid 60's that's obviously not true. However I did have a 'traumatic' birth and I could have died at that point - in Hellenisitic times, I probably would have. The Length of Life calculation for some writers involves the use of 'Circumnabulations' a forerunner of Primary Directions, so part of the F/E/C is concerned with how effectively the planets add to or detract from your time here on Earth.

As I haven't disentangled this from the rest of the astrological use of F/E/C I have to be careful in drawing conclusions but I'd say as a first stab that Mars is full of potential but might not actually deliver as expected.

Kalliope said:
This may be a really basic question, but I feel like I don't quite understand how the Hellenistic Astrologers (or any of the traditional astrologers, really) would define a "positive influence" in a life coming from a malefic planet. Does this simply mean that Mars will handle its Houses competently? Or that transits from Mars will be more so about initiation, action, and energy and less about Mars' more negative qualities (violence and accidents)? Or is it more specifically speaking about how, if it turns out to have a lot of responsibility manning my Ship (I'm thinking it will), that it will perform well?

Well a positive influence from Mars might make you more assertive (without being aggressive) might help to get engaged faster with problems or indeed general life, might give you more strength or 'courage' to handle the hard times. This could show up not just in the affaris of the houses Mars rules, but also as a more general trait to your character. It may also blend positively with other planets it has configurations with. And I'll be looking at some of those in Stage 3.

Kalliope said:
I can agree with the Mercury/Mars assessment as "adding rational thought to Mars' drive." And while this could be too modern a spin on it, could you also characterize this conjunction as enjoying debate, being too aggressively rational in discussion, or perhaps being argumentative for argument's sake?

Well Firmicus states that Mars and Mercury together on the Ascendant by night make men (and presumably women) in charge of great religions, generals, heralds, guards and followers of emperors, or great administrators. So whilst not being debate oriented it certainly seems to be good.

Now I've used Firmicus there, and I've not allowed for other aspects to the pair. For Stage 3 I'll use other authors as well and try to interpret the configurations. Not all of them as I'd more than double the length of the thread on that one stage alone but for a selected topic.

Kalliope said:
As for Saturn causing difficulties for them, how do aspects like these affect things for the Hellenistic astrologers? Do you just mean that Saturn could hinder or restrict any functioning that Mercury & Mars need to do?

In the section I've used above Firmicus talks about an opposition of square from Saturn in a nocturnal chart involving dangers, hindrances and the risk of being cheated. I'll have a look for what the trine can produce and include it at Stage 3 if you remind me.

Kalliope said:
Oh, my poor Moon, my poor Sect Light! She's in pretty bad shape! I was reading over your latest comments on Rulership according to Porphyry, and wondered if any of those rules push the argument for the Sun as Sect Light. It's confusing, but it seems like the Moon still wins out even though it's a lot weaker than the Sun. Are you still sticking with the Moon for my chart? How would one decide for sure -- by comparing predictions (or past events) using one or the other?

Yes I think there may well be and I'll look at that at the outset of Stage 2.

Minderwiz

kalliope said:
Not much to say about Venus except to lament the poor state of my in-sect benefic! Is she the planet in the worst shape yet? I'm used to thinking about my Venus in more modern terms of being freedom-loving in Sagitarrius, a bit out of control due to the square from Jupiter, and lacking in discernment because of the close conjunction with Neptune. It's interesting to switch gears to say that she's not going to be able to express herself or perform her functions well. In her case that means "reconciling and unifying" and also handling the affairs of the 7th and 12th houses, right?

It might simply mean she's a bit out of control LOL. According to Firmicus a square between Venus and Jupiter with Venus in the Superior position (earlier in the zodiac) indicates illicit loves, occupations having to do with clothing and care of the body, You will show a love of adornment, luxury and pleasure but there is a twist in that if you gain prosperity and happiness the conditions reverse. I've left the Moon out of that configuration but I'm sure it will modify the prediction and I'll look and see if there's anything directly about a configuration of all 3.

Kalliope said:
My main question about the Sun I put in my last post, regarding the Sect Light issue.

Coming up in Stage 2

Kalliope said:
So you're saying that aside from the Retrograde, Saturn is considered to be not so badly placed with regard to Fitness? That's surprising to me! Does its debility in Cancer not count for much, or at least much less than the boon of being in the Place of a Sectmate? How it is "rising?" -- is it in relation to the Lot of Fortune in the 8th? (So position relative to Fortuna isn't only for Completion?)

At my current level of understanding I'd say that the debility in Cancer does count, but it's alleviated or mitigated to an extent as Saturn is in one of the dignities of a sectmate (Jupiter by exaltation) According to the Schmidt approach that will limit Saturn's ability to get anything done except with Jupiter's help, and except in the Sign/House that Saturn is placed in. I can see the overall logic of this but I'm not sure how it pans out in practice and that's something that again might show up in either Stage 3 or 4.

Saturn is Rising because it can be seen in the sky at some stage during the day, even if in Astronomical terms it has already risen when the Sun sets. In your case it can actually be seen to rise during the night, in the astronomical sense of appearing over the eastern horizon. However by 'rising' Schmidt appears to simply mean it isn't under the beams, so it can be visible in the sky at some point during the day. When it's Under the Beams it will not be visible at all for around a month or a little more.

Not being seen is taken as reducing it's Fitness being seen adds to it's Fitness. Hellenisitic Astrology is much more based on the visible changes in the heavens than Modern Astrology is, as few Astrologers these days actually go out and look at the sky and even if they do, their view may be dimmed by street lighting, clouds etc.

Kalliope said:
Well, at least there's that...

Actually it isn't I got that one wrong. I should have said Tines from Jupiter plus the square from the Moon. The Moon is benefic for the most part but I'm not sure I should have used her this way (Sorry Moon) and I missed the Trine from Mars, which falls nearer to Saturn than the square from the Moon.

So Saturn isn't quite as lucky there as I originally thought. I will write out 100 time 'I must not rush posts'

Ronia

Minderwiz said:
Well I'm trying to make sense of the material the only way I know, by casting charts and seeing what the outcome is. That's why your feedback on your own experience is so useful. One of the problems I face though is not only trying to get a clears view of the material and if you read it you'd realise that it's often as clear as mud - partly because of their style of writing and partly because it's fragmentary, but also that if I apply some of the methods without some explanation it becomes even more weird and there's no context to make any comprehensible judgement. So thank you for at least trying to follow the thread and reporting back on your views/issues but it isn't completely necessary that you fully understand it (to say the least) and I freely admit that it's taking me several readings of the material to make progress and get some glimmers.

I know they are very difficult to read, I have very few attempts to do this in the past and gave up, just didn’t have the time to translate this to myself. Thanks to you for trying and you’re most welcome for my feedback, as much as I can provide.

Minderwiz said:
I'm not sure your Mars is out of condition but a sports car is not always the best form of transport LOL

Ah, I’m a fan of big safe cars since I became a parent but do I feel the heat when I see a Porsche… LOL.

Minderwiz said:
Well you assume that Transits are the starting point and as I said early for the Hellenistic Astrologers they were the last port of call] Now it may well be that Mars as an explanatroy variable doesn't work well with your life and that would cast doubts on the validity of either the Hellenistic Approach, or my understanding of it or indeed both. That may take some time to resolve, as I'm sure I'm going to have to revisit the results from these five charts and then do some futher reading before drawing prelimiary conclusions,

No, I was actually trying to give him the benefit of the doubt, i.e. “not good in natal chart but may be will try harder during transits”. I understand the ancients didn’t take transits first, I don’t either. I’m taking more time with Mars because he is the Sun’s ruler, so I’m trying to figure out why he’s not playing stronger in transits.
P.S. For that matter, Venus is felt very strongly lately, over the past 2-3 years I feel her more and more in transits, it wasn’t like that before or not to such extend, I wonder if it’s possible for a planet to get stronger with the time… Sounds like a nonsense to me but the facts are these.
P.P.S. Minderwiz, did I miss the “winds” and when they were/are/will be favorable and when not in my analysis? Like the periods of life you were talking about, beginning, middle and late stage, which will be better and which worse?

Minderwiz

Stage 3 - Some preliminary points

I'm up to trying Stage 3 - the topical analysis - with Ronia. I think I need to make some prelimnary general observations, from what I'v gathered till now and I'll add to these later if necessary. Topic areas were taken not just from the house, planets in the house and the house ruler but also from general considerations such as the configurations of relevant planets and especially the use of the Lots. These allowed the Astrologer to focus in on one particular part of a house meaning. That focus might include rearranging the chart to have the relevant Lot as it's Ascendant.

One problem that I will have is that the Hellenistic period covered at least 600 years and, depending on where the start and finish are fixed (a matter of opinion) it could be as much as 800 years. Over that period different takes on the same thing will occur and interpretations will begin to vary in terms of emphasis, even worse, the Lots proliferated and there may be quite differently calculated lots to show the same thing. It's not so much that the proliferation invalidates the analysis (though it may) but that the writers may have seen the topic in a different light or from a different perspective but not always made that clear. For example, is Marriage the product of a match made in heaven, or is it a legal relationship between Man and Woman (the Greeks had no Civil Partnerships or same sex marriages (though they don't necessarily condemn homosexual relationships).

Ronia's chosen area of Livelihood, which may well crop up again throws up another difference between Hellenistic and Modern analysis, (though it really should not). In studying someone's livelihood or occupation, they would start from their health, or specifically from any injuries or threatened injuries. Being in ill health or mentally or physically disabled directly affected livelihood. You were either dependent on your family (usually brothers because they had the earning power to keep you beyond your parents deaths) or you became a beggar.

In our developed world no Astrologer would start there, yet for the large majority of the world's population this may still hold true. I recently saw a TV item about a UK photographer injured in a land mine explosion in Afghanistan whilst being embedded with some US soldiers. He returned to do a photo shoot of people there who had similar injuries to his own and one of the points he made was it's not only the trama of the injuries but also the likelihood that they will be destitute for the rest of their lives.

You might have a talent for playing football and live in a deprived area. If you remain healthy and develop your talent you might escape from a life of poverty but if you are injured in some way, no matter how good the talent you won't make it.

Health may also affect your marriage prospects or your prospects of children'

Therefore you will find that the Lot of Fortune can play a major role in all readings, as can it's sister, the Lot of Spirit - your ability to influence events and your intellect and soul. So there may be a series of two or three Lots employed.

Statements that relate to the configurations, can often seem harsh, or extreme or exaggerated - they don't fit easily with modern minds. At the moment I'm unsure whether these statements are deliberately exaggerated to show the best or worst cases only, or whether they actually believed them. So I may often come back to considering whether a statement on a particular configuration can be adapted to have real meaning in a modern context or whether Hellenistic Aspect Configurations should be treated from a modern perspective only in interpretations, or even might not be much use in a modern environment and are only of historical interest (though that might still have some value as we may at least understand how our own techniques have developed and what their underlying meaning is).

Finally, some planets have a natural signifcation which brings them in to a specific topic area. For example, Mercury, Venus and Mars were used for identifying appropriate occupations. Sun and Moon were seen as having a more general oversight but you will find some occupations that do relate to Jupiter (religion, priesthood, the Law, administration and ruling) and Saturn (blacksmith. iron workings, mining). So don't be surprised if planets which might be in areas of your chart that don't seem related are pulled in because of their natural signfication.

Hellenisitic Astrology seems more free flowing and interconnected in this respect compared to the later tradiition. Though it might also mean I miss something I ought to include and have to come back to it later.

Ronia

That's true about health. I did have a talent in the sports (it's considered an art actually but based on physical performance) I was involved with and if I hadn't had all these injuries, I'd have most probably become an excellent performer. However, it was my choice to try and push myself harder, against the advice of my mentors, so... I don't know how it would come out in the chart. It is unfortunate but it's based on personal choice and it was a risk which could have been profitable too. As with all risks in life, we take them and hope for the best, it may turn out either way. While if we don't risk we'll lose nothing but we'll win nothing as well.

Minderwiz

Ronia said:
That's true about health. I did have a talent in the sports (it's considered an art actually but based on physical performance) I was involved with and if I hadn't had all these injuries, I'd have most probably become an excellent performer. However, it was my choice to try and push myself harder, against the advice of my mentors, so... I don't know how it would come out in the chart. It is unfortunate but it's based on personal choice and it was a risk which could have been profitable too. As with all risks in life, we take them and hope for the best, it may turn out either way. While if we don't risk we'll lose nothing but we'll win nothing as well.

I'm just compiling the evidence from a number of sources - will probably post it tomorrow but one of these bits from Firmicus is:

If Mars and Mercury are in square aspect and Mars holds the superior position (earlier in the zodiac) it weakens the native with constant pains, attacks all his occupations with reverses, makes him the victim of evil rumours.

Now firstly the language will give issues, so be warned when the post comes tomorrow. I don't take these literally but you do have Mercury (10th house) being squared from Mars in a superior position and what you've just outlined appears to be a reverse in your potential career because of injuries (which are usually Mars ruled). I was taking 'pains' to mean problems and difficulties, rather than the literal physical pain but this does seem to fit. Also don't assume that every part of the 'predicition' is going to hold true. I think that some of the statements contain a list of examples, rather than a package of things that may befall the native.

There are some more of these that I would really like feedback on because they do seem to have a chance of fitting, given some of your previous comments in this thread.

Ronia

This is true about my present profession too. After I was done with sports and decided to pursue PR and event management, I started very successfully. However, I have always ended badly because of other people's jealousy, gossiping, etc. One way or another I've been forced to leave and start again from the beginning somewhere else. Not very hopeful that it's in the chart though. It basically means it's a "given". I'm curious if, according to the ancients, these "givens" can be changed.

Minderwiz

Ronia said:
This is true about my present profession too. After I was done with sports and decided to pursue PR and event management, I started very successfully. However, I have always ended badly because of other people's jealousy, gossiping, etc. One way or another I've been forced to leave and start again from the beginning somewhere else. Not very hopeful that it's in the chart though. It basically means it's a "given". I'm curious if, according to the ancients, these "givens" can be changed.

Yes, and there are other similar indications too, plus family issues. I want to try and organise the material a little first, but as it seems to fit, at least in this one respect I'll try and keep that to a minimum and perhaps put a comment section after it.

Most of these Astrologers were Stoics, the philosophy of the time, so they believed in fate or at least that fates could not significantly be changed. This was a belief system outside Astrology, and was one of the prevailing belief systems of the time.

So I doubt they actually addressed the issue of what stragegy you could take to remedy the situation. However that desn't mean that it can't be done. We don't usually have such a fatalistic approach and we would consider that there are ways to deal with much of these issues. Perhaps the Hellenistic Approach is good for stating the problem but other approaches both astrological and non-astrological) to find solutions.

That's definitely something we could consider.

Minderwiz

Ronia Livelihood - 1

For this issue of Livelihood I have used the second and tenth houses, any planets in them, and configurations to those planets and their rulers and configurations to them. Tenth House - contains Mercury and Lot of Fortune. (ruler Venus) and the Second contains no planets at all (ruler Saturn). I was going to discuss the Lots referred to but I will leave that to the next post with commentary.

I have organised the material by author but left there words largely unchanged. I have added some explanatory comments but have left issues of interpretation and especially possible actions to deal with the issues raised to a later post.. I must repeat the warning that the language used is such as would be considered inappropriate by a Modern Astrologer (with good reason) however given Ronia's comments on the previous quote I supplied I think it picked up something that no modern writer is likely to consider and that might mean that valuable information goes without any consideration at all or discussion with the person concerned.

I take most of these statements to be the extremes that could be expected and, where more than one thing is mentioned, a series of possible examples, rather than a list of things that will happen. It's also worth remembering that the people who likely consulted an Astrologer, were not living average lives but were in significant positions of power and/or that Astrologersalso used 'celebrity horoscopes' much like modern writers do.

Rhetorius (c 500-600 CE)

On the tenth house:

Mercury in the MC, matutine (Morning Star) will indicate admirable and splendid actions for it will be, when they are aspected by one of the stars of sect, great rulers, or those entrusted with the affairs of cities or kingdoms or great men, trustworth, good, discriminating. But opposed by Mars they will be unsuccessful in advancement and they will have their share of flights.

There is a sextile from one of the planets of sect, Saturn, but also there is a square from Mars. The obvious question being whether Mars here has the same effect as through opposition. Mars is the out of sect malefic, so there may be trouble there.

The Lot of Fortune in the tenth makes for very fortunate persons unless it or it's ruler are afflicted. The ruler of the ninth being in the MC makes for good fortune abroad. The Lot is squared by Mars. and sextiled by Saturn.

Mercury is the ruler of the ninth.

On the Second House

... if a malefic beholds it by opposition or square or conjunction it signifies the loss of livelihood of the native.

Now Saturn opposes the second House from the eighth. Modern writers don't use aspects to empty houses but the Hellenisitic Astroloers did. Saturn however is the malefic of sect and might be better behaved than this. He goes on to say that if the second is the domicile (sign) of Saturn that such loss of livelihood is due to old people, or for the sake of land or inheritance, or the affairs of the dead or worthless people.

Rhetorius makes reference to a Lot of Livelihiood (ASC+ Cusp of second - Lord 2)

This Lot actually falls in the middle of Cancer, the Seventh house of the chart - so is ruled by the Moon.

On Actions or Occupations.

The key planets are Mercury, Venus and Mars and the key places are the four angles, the succedent houses to them (2,11, 8, 5 and he also includes the sixth. plus the Lot of Fortune and the applicationof the Moon and the star making it's (helical?) rising seven days before or seven days after (Mercury for you). I take these to be in order of priority, so we look at the angles first. Mercury and Mars fall into the angles of the whole sign chart and thus indicate two possible careers, one in a Mercury occupation and one in a Mars.

Rhetorius makes reference to the Lot of Action - I can't find a definition in his work but the most likely one is that given by Dorotheus and cited by Paulus

ASC + Mars - Mercury

This Lot falls into early Libra and is ruled by Venus, it is in the tenth House.

Firmicus Maternus (c 330 CE)

Moon associated with a malefic indicates a mediocre or obscure chart

The Moon is in the same sign as Mars, I'm not sure what he means by 'obscure'

Jupiter and Mercury in opposition attacks those who have had training in learned speech. The native has bad relations with with kings and powerful men because of those that envy them. They either suffer from the death of brothers (and sisters?) are alienated from brotherly affection by quarrels (again I assume this includes sisters) or encounter homicidal hatred from blood kin.

The statements here seem to be quite extreme - but the issue of 'envy' arises again, as a possible reason for problems. I'd be interested in your take on the last part of this delineation - does it in any way reflect your life?

If Mars and Mercury are in square aspect and Mars holds the superior position (earlier in the zodiac) it weakens thenativewith constant pains, attacks all his occupations with reverses, makes him the victim of evil rumours.

The statement that you saw as being a reasonable reflection in the previous posts.

Jupiter and Mars in square aspect with Jupiter holding the superior position indicate great fame, good reputation and high position. But they are never able to preserve their paternal inheritance; they will have chlidren late and suffer constant grief from accidents to children.

Again this seems extreme but it does indicate both success and loss.

Saturn trine Jupiter will be very good if both in good places or their own signs. But less so in other places and even less so if Mars is in a threatening aspect.

Saturn rules your Ascendant and so has a role to play. It also is in aspect to Mercury in the tenth, confirming the role.

Saturn square Sun, with Saturn on the right - demotion and loss of position also contraction of the body from muscular deformity.

Saturn square Mercury with Saturn in the superior position indicates exile from the day of birth, they weaken all planning and thought processes, and hinder activities. The native will carry out adminstrative duties but in a position of subjection to another. They will suffer seriously from the attacks of the envious.

This also raises the issue of loss of position because of attacks from the envious. Exile was usually seen as being very negative, because you are no longer in your own city with your own relatives. You don't have any citizen rights abroad and you wont be supported if things go wrong. Foreign places were generally seen as bad and the home city was generally seen as good.

Vettius Valens (c 175 CE)

If the stars are in opposition(Mercury and Venus), they bring even greater slander, and men are at cross purposes and suffer ups and downs. If the stars are in opposition in the Bad Daimon, men will be crushed by the supreme authority, they will feel the effects o f mass insurrections, and they will have few brothers, or will have quarrels with their brothers, children, or relatives

I've cited this because it contains an extra qualification, compared to Firmicus. The second sentence refers to the 'Bad Daimon' that is the House of the Bad Spirit - the twelfth. So he is seeing the problems with family as being activated if the opposition includes the twelfth house. Yours does not.

The 11th Place <Relative to the Lot of > Fortune and its Influence on Prosperity. We have found the 11th Place <relative to the Lot> of Fortune to be the Place of Accomplishment, the bestower of property and goods, especially if benefics are in this Place or in aspect. ........Saturn when configured in its proper places makes men rulers of estates and property; if out of place and in the wrong sect it brings disaster, ruin, shipwreck, poverty, and debt.

The eleventh place from Fortune is Leo and in Leo is Saturn. Saturn is not in a good place but is in sect, so I'd see this in a weaker form, simply impeding the good from Saturn's placement.

In the next post I'll look at the Lots and also make some general comments.