Who's for giving "the Gypsies" their due?

Right... Well, I am not talking about one person, I'm talking about general traits in the roma culture. This is not based on prejudice I've gathered from talking to one or two roma, this is from growing up around three big roma families (originally from different countries) and watching their children change and become assimlitaed into the culture and finally being married off at 14-15 years of age. You on the other hand seem to have this romantic hollywood notion about what the roma are and has been through history, and this is a very unfair notion to have of a people. More unfair, I think, than saying that they're culture is and was a patriarchal collectivistic structure with dated traditions.

Fulgour said:

All of history isn't about just one day,
and all people aren't the same person.

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True. But you'd think that if the Gypsies were the depositaries of the "accumulated wisdom" of Chaldea and Egypt, of the northern Druids, of Yoga teachings, not to mention the Gnostic, the Montanist, the Donatist and the Manichean, something would remain of these in Gipsy lore or teaching. Apart from a strong and abiding cult of the Black Madonna in Saintes-Maries-de-la-Mer, I can't see what specific present-day (or even 19th century) Gipsy tradition links them to those Radoczi mentions. On the contrary, many Roma are at pains to prove their specificity. No doubt, as all nomads, they once acted as vehicles for ideas, both orthodox and heretical, as well as for news. But that is different from the form of organised transmission suggested above.

aibhlin said:

You on the other hand...

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So then if I know an Italian, it is the same as saying
that I know a Roman? Egyptians today are the same
as 5000 years ago? Excuse me...we're Talking Tarot.

That depends on what you're talking about, of course, but basic cultural structures doesn't change very easily. Such traditions that I consider misogynic are not very likely to have appeared fifty or so years ago but are infact quite old. Besides, it's quite different to talk about similarities between the roma culture now and then and about ancient and modern Egypt, to compare the two is silly. Furthermore, you weren't discussing the roma in past tense only you were talking about them as being specifically psychic throughout their history up till today so I don't really think you can bash me for doing something similar (which I wasn't even doing, I was refering mostly to the roma culture of today, though I hope you realise it didn't just pop up out of nothing when they settled).

Oh, and what you were talking about wasn't tarot, you were talking about the roma culture in general and how they supposedly are the protectors of all secret knowledge ever, which hasn't got a bit to do with their historical involvement with tarot and is a completly unfounded and strange statement to make.

Who's for giving "the Gypsies" their due?

I don’t believe the Egyptians of today are anything like the Egyptians of the days of Ramses, or Hatshepsut…based on…I’ve been there, ate with them, talked with them, slept with them, partied with them, prayed with them…

The culture died – and they lost the knowledge through time (which is the ultimate victor of all).

Judging all of Egypt from experiences in modern Cairo would be foolish. Spending time in southern and middle Egypt gets you closer to the people.

Judging all Roma from three families is called stereotyping based on a small data-base.

Stereotyping is not always bad. It is not always good.

But I ain’t gonna learn about Chitzen Itza by asking some guy standing outside Home Depot.

The Underground Stream – Esoteric Tarot Revealed by Christine Payne-Towler is a wonderful book – y’all should read it. Ya may not agree with everything in it – but perhaps it’ll get ya to start thinking outside the box. Which is much needed around here of late…



ahhh look at that...he fell right over...

I'm basing my view of the roma culture on the cultures of the roma of sweden, finland and what I know of the roma on ireland. Also, when I'm talking about families, I'm refering not to a small group of people but big clans. I don't have prejudice against roma as individual people, I do however dislike how the roma culture is structured in these countries. What I'm reacting against in this tread is the romantic image that's presented by some people, that if something is stereotyping based on nothing but ones own imagination. Because they're people, normal people who do normal people stuff and not some kind of fairy folk.

boxes, chinese and other

I'm all for thinking outside the box.
To do that, one does has to know where the inside meets the outside.
...Isn't that why we're all here?

on-on topic-topic

Everywhere I look, I see "Gypsy Tarot" being
owlly hooted out for Halloween ~ as usual ...

It's now Halloween-time... Let's take a look around!
Tarot and The Rom are out in all their Gypsy Glory!

I sure don't see anyone dressing up like Ibid.