Can Tarot really foretell the Future ?

gregory

Actually closrapexa - EXACTLY that did happen here - someone asked if her daughter would pass her exams and the cards said no - we all agreed. She took to studying - something she hadn't exactly been doing - and DID pass - rather well, as I recall. Good shot

dancing_moon

Nikita_ said:
The fact that the future may not be set in stone doesn’t necessarily mean that we can always turn things around to get the happy ending we desire. Plus, I think your approach can be very dangerous and misleading.

Like others have mentioned, I'm sure you've misunderstood Sulis.

If anything, I'd expect her to tell the friend in your story that the relationship isn't working and is unfixable, and give her advice on how to move on, and that latter part would be exactly the 'positive note' for that reading. 'Positive' not in the sense that 'you'll get this particular guy to love you' but 'positive' in the sense that the querent knows what to do in order to get out of an unhappy situation and move on to a better life.

the fact that we can’t make someone love us, no matter how hard we try

I thought that goes without saying.

gregory

dancing_moon said:
I thought that goes without saying.

And to pull death for that simply means "move on". "Let go." "Change your outlook."

Nikita_

gregory said:
Sulis did NOT say that readings should be turned around to get the outcome we desire. Nor does she "try to make her sitters feel good." She is far too responsible for that. "Making them feel good" where there are scary cards is not the same thing as giving them hope. It doesn't have to be hope that whatever they asked about will turn out the way they want - it can be hope of something completely different.
Clearly the reader you cite was not a reader anyone should go to. But I would go to Sulis like a shot. I'd get sensible information - maybe not 100% palatable, but useful and not presented as OMG the end is at hand.

SURE that exact desired outcome the sitter hopes for may not be possible - but saying that is NOT the same thing as suggesting that only a dire outcome is on the cards. The whole point is having the information available to be able to change things. IF your relationship is going to end - then look at ways you can go forward in a new way. IF it is going to end because of the way things are now - for instance, where you have someone who is so paranoid about losing their partner that they can't allow them out of the house alone - it does happen - that will kill a relationship; you might pull death for that - but you can also learn from the cards drawn that letting go of that paranoia - while not easy - could change it all and keep the relatinship going.

Apart from the fact that I believe sulis can speak out for herself without any need for a lawyer, the point is that sometimes the line between wanting to give people hope, not wanting to destroy their hopes, and showing them an alternative path, can be very thin and ambiguous indeed...if we are saying that a reader should be tactful, and help the querent understand that the world is not coming to an end because a relationship is over, or it is not working, and there will be other things to look forward to, then I think we can all agree....but sulis said something quite different, she said that, because the future is not set in stone, we can help the querent find the best way of getting the desired outcome....I think the implications of that are quite clear ; my view is that a reader's task is to help people understand when it's time to let go and move on, because unfortunately in life we can't aways get the desired result....And another thing : although of course a reader must be human, and understanding, and sympathethic, she or he is NOT a spiritual guide, a priest or even a therapist, just someone who reads the cards and delivers a message....what the querents decide to do with it, it's up to them....

Nikita_

closrapexa said:
I agree with gregory and Sulis. Suppose you did a reading on the outcome of a certain test that you were supposed to be taking (a written test, I mean). The outcome of the reading was not very good, yet the answer there is obvious, and also responsible: study harder. That's a positive end to the reading yet also does not give any false hope.

So you do study harder, and give it your all and end up passing the test. The reading was not wrong, nor was the advice given. On the contrary, accepting the outcome as the end would merely mean you would sit back, tell yourself you would fail the test anyway and not even try. There is no guarantee that studying for the test would make you pass it, but not studying is in fact a guarantee that you will fail.

That is common sense, I think. I for one, although of course I believe in the validity of tarot, never follow its advice, when I really want to do something-even knowing that it will turn out to be a mistake, or a waste of time. And the golden rule for me, in tarot as well as in life in general, is if you're not prepared to hear the truth, you shouldn't ask for it.

Nikita_

gregory said:
Actually closrapexa - EXACTLY that did happen here - someone asked if her daughter would pass her exams and the cards said no - we all agreed. She took to studying - something she hadn't exactly been doing - and DID pass - rather well, as I recall. Good shot

Or the readings were all wrong, which is the original issue I brought up in this thread.

Sulis

Nikita_ said:
The fact that the future may not be set in stone doesn’t necessarily mean that we can always turn things around to get the happy ending we desire. Plus, I think your approach can be very dangerous and misleading.
Years ago I knew a tarot reader, who was also a friend, who applied the same method to readings as you do : trying to make people feel good, positive, in other words, giving them hope-something we discussed widely in the thread. We were a group of friends, all into tarot to some degree, and she had an exoteric shop where she read tarot for clients. One day, one of the people in our circle took her a friend for a reading, who was stuck in an impossible love situation with a guy who was obviously taking advantage of her, and leading her on without any intention of ever getting serious with her. She did the reading-we were all there- and we all ended up with the impression that she had told her to hang on, be positive, because everything was going to work out fine, and gave her advice on how to get the “ desired result “, as you put it. The querent was all happy and optimistic when she left, and when we were alone, the reader said to us : “ That poor girl. She should really forget about that guy, he’s a b*** and has no real feelings for her…” We were dumbfounded. We all-4 of us – looked at each other incredulous. Had we been to the same reading as her ? The querent was justified in her unfounded hopes ; true, she felt positive and optimistic about life, but how long would that last ? Sooner or later, she, like all of us, would have to face reality; the fact that we can’t make someone love us, no matter how hard we try, and that sometimes, we are better off employing our energies gathering the strength to move on rather than wasting them chasing after an impossible dream.
I’ve repeated this ad nauseam in the thread, but I guess there’s going to be no meeting point, with someone who believes we are “ masters of our own destiny “ and we can make everything and anything happen. Personally, I don’t think you do people any favours with that approach, sulis. And neither is it helpful to them. And it scares me to realize that there are so many readers who believe otherwise.

Hi Nikita_

No, I think you seem to have completely missed my point and mistaken my saying that I'd look for a positive outcome for my saying that I'd tell the querant what they wanted to hear.. That isn't what I said at all.

From what I can see from your posts you have a very binary view of things; tarot either can or it can't predict the future when in reality I think things are much more complex than that.. Tarot can sometimes predict the future if every factor affecting that future lines up..
You see there is no one future, there are many futures, possibly an infinite number of futures and it takes many factors happening now in the present to determine which future will be.
Imagine yourself at a fixed point - that's now, the present.
In order to get to a certain future you need to do certain things but everything else that affects that future needs to do a certain thing too.. If one thing is out then the future you get will be a different one, one of the infinite number of possible futures that there are and it's not just you who affects the future and that's what makes it so difficult to predict.

In your example, the only positive future you're seeing is if the querant ends up with the guy she wants to be with but that's not the only possible positive outcome and if the cards say that's not going to happen then it certainly isn't positive for her to continue to pursue that outcome.. A more positive way to end the reading would be to ask how she should best handle this and take it from there.

A positive outcome and the outcome the querant wants are not the same thing..

I hope that's clarified my post a little and will reassure you that I certainly do not read in a 'dangerous and misleading' way or in any way similar to the reader in the example you've given. Please don't assume to know my 'approach' when you seem to have completely misunderstood what I said.

Nikita_

dancing_moon said:
Like others have mentioned, I'm sure you've misunderstood Sulis. If anything, I'd expect her to tell the friend in your story that the relationship isn't working and is unfixable, and give her advice on how to move on, and that latter part would be exactly the 'positive note' for that reading. 'Positive' not in the sense that 'you'll get this particular guy to love you' but 'positive' in the sense that the querent knows what to do in order to get out of an unhappy situation and move on to a better life.

I thought that goes without saying.

I don't know sulis as a reader, so I can't comment. But I do think we have to be careful with ambiguity, especially with some querents-I had one the other day-who come to a reading just to hear what the already think confirmed. Just like I said, I had a woman the other day, who was asking about a work project she had which seemed to have ended up in nothing because of a strong disagreement with her partner. The cards didn't show any hopes for a change of heart on the part of her partner, and therefore no possibility of resurrecting the project. She insisted that if she did a series of things that would cost her a lot in terms of time, effort, money, etc, he would change his mind. I asked the cards, and they clearly kept saying no, he had moved on to something else.The woman insisted, she wanted me to tell her that, if she did what she was planning to do, everything would be fine. I told her that, if she believed that, it was the right thing to do, but before investing so much into it, she should consider other options, or at least be prepared for the possibility of not getting the hoped for result. She insisted that she was certain. So I said to her : " May I ask you why you are here ? If you are so certain that by doing A and B you'll get C as a result, just go for it....why are you looking for my approval ? " For the first time, I saw a thoughtful expression on her face....Was she just looking for someone to blame when it all goes wrong ? Who knows....

Sulis

Nikita_ said:
.but sulis said something quite different, she said that, because the future is not set in stone, we can help the querent find the best way of getting the desired outcome....

Just to add, I didn't say that this at all, I said this:

Sulis said:
I don't like to leave any reading on a negative note so if things look as if they are heading in a bad direction, I ask how the querant can change that outcome so they leave with some practical advice about how to make their life how they want it to be.

That is not getting 'the desired outcome', it is making your life how you want it to be.. In your example, the lady wants the guy but what if that guy really isn't right for her.. Her 'desired outcome' is not going to make her life into the wonderful life she wants, she may end up with a guy who will ultimately not be right for her and they'll both be terribly unhappy.. Tarot flags that up by saying she can't have him and so we move on to trying to get her to see what will make her happy..

This is my point when I said that things are much more complicated than 'either, or' 'this or that' 'black and white'...

Many people are saying the same thing and it's backed up by science now.. You seem to be so set in your belief that you're actually bending what people are saying to match your own world view, one where if something is not right then it's wrong and I think that's taking a very simplistic view.

dancing_moon

Nikita_ said:
But I do think we have to be careful with ambiguity, especially with some querents

I think we have to be careful with ambiguity with everyone. But if a person is determined to hear only what they want to hear, there's very little we can actually do except keeping trying to be as clear as we can.