I honestly would never have expected the level of anti-qabalah and anti-astrology sentiment here in the Thoth forum that I have seen over the past couple weeks. I'd expect that in most of the other forums, for sure, but here? I'm shocked, frankly.
Obviously, for a Marseilles deck, for example, the claim that the whole thing is founded in Qabalah and Astrology is hard to swallow. IIRC, there were occultists who claimed that. Eliphas Levi, wasn't it? And the Golden Dawn. And there is some serious doubt about this position.
No agrument there.
But, I'm pretty sure that the RWS deck was largely based on (or at least heavily influenced by) the Qabalah and Astrology and other Western religious and mystic strands.
And, I'm positive that Crowley constructed the Thoth Tarot around the Qabalistic Tree of Life and Astrological considerations, and alchemy and many other things. That's how he designed the thing for crying out loud!
So, I'm a bit at a loss to understand those who say, here in the Thoth forum, that the correspondences and attributions from Qabalah and Astrology are hooey.
The SYMBOLS THEMSELVES make an appearance on the cards for crying out loud!!! I'm just now studying the 6 of wands and there are two astrological symbols right on the card: one for Jupiter, and one for Leo.
Jupiter means something, stands for something, IS something in astrology. And Leo means something, too. And Jupiter in the sign of Leo means something more specific. And "Victory" dovetails quite nicely with it.
And, no surprise, the RWS 6 of Wands depicts a scene quite compatible with "Victory" and Jupiter in Leo.
ravenest said:
Why, take the point that most modern (contemporary, non-magical , non- indigenous, etc) astrology can't even explain what it IS measuring or calculating, . . .
I think most if not all professional astrologers would disagree with this statement, and would explain exactly what Astrology measures. Something along the line of "Astrology is the science that explores the action of the celestial bodies upon animate and inanimate objects, and their reactions to such influences."
. . . in the Thoth Crowley talks about astro signs, yet his tarot astrology was taken from G.D. that used constellations and started their Zodiac at Regulus as 0 deg. Leo and crowley seems to have copied half their system and used modern tropical western astrology to explain the rest, I'm not surprised that some taroists see astrology intarot as Hooey ...... although it doesnt have to be!
I don't know the specifics of Crowley's Astrological system, but so far I have seen nothing which is inharmonious with modern tropical astrology such as is laid out in March & McEvers books. According to what I've read, Crowley actually introduced America to Astrology, ghostwriting for Evangeline Adams.
But it actually doesn't matter if Crowley's system is or is not completely harmonious with any other system. It doesn't matter if it was created from two or more distinct pre-existing systems. All that matters is if it is a coherent and cogent whole in and of itself.
And, I really shouldn't have to point this out in a Tarot forum--it's the sort of thing I point out all the time in a gadget type forum I frequent--but I will: the fact that different systems
seem to contradict one another, or that no two astrologers can be in complete agreement, is in no wise proof that astrology is hooey.
Take something as simple and quantifiable and scientific as light. Light travels at 186,000 miles per second
no matter who is looking at it. So if I'm standing still, and you are travelling towards me very fast, and in between us is a light bulb (also standing still), then you and I will both measure the same speed for the speed of light. It's a constant. And this, despite the fact that we are in relative motion. It's pretty hard to wrap your head around it; it's fairly non-logical, non-common sensical. In our everyday world, that's not the way things work. Our everyday experience indicates that one second of my time is one second of your time, and the same for space. An inch is an inch is an inch. But, generally speaking, this is not true.
And if something like light, which is a pretty material-world, objective phenomenon, can be so confounding and require a genius like Einstein to penetrate to the truth of it, . . . well, you see where I am going, right? Doesn't that say that spiritual and mystical and other higher-order truths are going to be even more so?
Astrology is hooey. I suppose that this is meant objectively, and is basically saying that the time and place of your birth have no statistical or scientific relation to your personality and inner world.
And, you know, I'm not certainly not convinced that that isn't true. But even if it were the case that a natal chart is an interesting but irrelevant compilation of fun signs and planets and concepts,
it is still the case that the archetypes and archetypal truths laid out within astrology have great merit and applicability to our lives and the lives of others.
A certain class of mental vision requires concepts and forms, requires archetypes. For without these, the vision fails or never developes or is severely hampered. How much is contained within the person of "Scrooge"? He's rather archetypal, I think. Experience with Charles Dicken's famous story empowers the ability to see a certain type of character or influence within the people around us.
Of course, if that's all you had, it would be better that you had nothing. A set of archetypes should form a
complete set of archetypes, or try to. I suspect that the human mind, collectively, creates these, in complete sets,
because it needs them! This doesn't mean that one Pantheon of divinities must line up exactly against another.
But it does mean, I think, that when you understand one system fully, it actually helps you to understand another, and further, that you will see the same spiritual truths at the root of it all. Dogma and doctrine are not the same as the real essence and living powers of something. This is why comparative religion as an academic discipline is such a quagmire, I suspect.
Anyway, I'm going to cut myself off before I foam at the mouth.
I just don't understand the antipathy towards Qabalah and Astrology sometimes seen here. For myself, I am drinking these things in just like with the Tarot. It's water to a person dying of thirst, in my case. And at the moment I could care less whether or not Astrology really is predictive or not, because I find it eminently informative and instructive and coherent.
As Kenny has pointed out, becoming a truly proficient astrologer takes A LOT of work and study and thought and meditation. To just dismiss the whole lot of them with a simplistic observation about how no two of them are in complete agreement seems to me to be rather unfair and besides the point.
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On another note, though, suedeheadsmiths, if you want to use reversals and don't want to get into Astrology and ED and all that, I'm totally cool with that. Please don't think I am trying to disagree with THAT. If Lady Harris did her work well (and I think she did) then it's all in there in the cards, and if they speak to you that clearly and powerfully without any research, ROCK ON! That's awesome.
Personally, I don't use reversals, and am currently trying to learn Astrology and Qabalah and other occult disciplines. I use reversals with the RWS, though. Just not with the Thoth.