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Huck  Huck is offline
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Join Date: 02 Jul 2003
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Huck 

Perhaps one should pay attention in the Etteilla questions to an earlier unusual Minchiate deck called "Minchiate Francesi", which was made c. 1730 (if I remember correctly). Material to it is hard to find.

But the first card is "Chaos", as in the Etteilla Tarot ...



... and in the description of Tarot.org.il ...
http://www.tarot.org.il/Minchiate%20Francesi/
Quote:
The Minchiate Francesi is a 98 cards deck, rather different than the Italian Minchiate decks. Following is a description based on the Solleone reprint of the deck. It's printed in sepia. The 42 trumps include -

1.The chaos.
2. The sun, Helios in the sun chariot pulled by four horses.
3. The moon, a woman with bow and arrow seated on a cloud with the moon at her back - possibly Artemis.
4. The stars, a feminine figure holding a scepter with a stars at it's top, seated on clouds against the background of the stars.
5. The world, an infant seated on concentric circles and holding a sandglass in his hand.
6. The element of air, a woman seated on clouds above a rural landscape.
7. The element of earth, a crowned woman seated on the earth beside fruits in a rural landscape.
8. The element of water, a woman in a sea-shell chariot pulled by two fish by the beach.
9. The element of fire, Perseus seated at a table holding a helmet, with a shield with Medusa's head or face on it.

... etc.
... we find "elements" also in the lower ranks - as in the Etteilla.

Some more pictures are given by Tarot passages ...
http://www.tarotpassages.com/francesi.htm

Two others in a pdf.file of Giordano Berti:
http://www.tarot-as-tarocchi.com/1.pdf

A playing card seller offers this information:
Quote:
Le sommet de la vente pourrait bien être atteint avec le «Minchiate» de François
de Poillly, 2ème version, un jeu complet de 98 cartes, estimé 8 000 / 12 000
€. Le Minchiate est une forme florentine du tarot, où l’on a ajouté des atouts ;
très à la mode en Italie aux XVIIe et XVIIIe siècle, il séduisit François I de Poilly
qui en réalisa une version française à son retour à Paris, vers 1660. Son fils
François II a voulu « remettre de l’ordre » dans ces atouts « incohérents », d’où
cette nouvelle édition, connue en 2 exemplaires uniquement.
... according which a Francois I de Poilly made c. 1660 this deck, which was published (again ?) c. 1730 by his son Francois II de Poilly.
http://www.millon-associes.com/doc/C...uer-051111.pdf

Indeed a graveur Francois de Poilly (1623-1693) existed with some reputation, and the whole family seems to be involved in graphical productions. And this Francois de Poilly had been in Italy (1649-1656), where he might have become acquainted with Minchiate games.
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3%A7ois_Poilly

I found this text from 1672: ...
http://books.google.de/books?id=oYQ-...gbs_navlinks_s
... where "Francois Poilly senior" is noted between the authors (perhaps as engraver ?), but the major author is Pierre Le Moyne.

Pierre Le Moyen is of interest, cause this man became "suspicious" cause an edition about the "Femmes Fortes" ... the project had some similarity to Tarot.
http://tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=162795

A further project, in which Pierre Le Moyne and Francois Poilly cooperated is reported here:
De l'art de regner. Au Roi (1665)
http://books.google.de/books?id=pgbB...0moyne&f=false

******

Well, for the moment I've no answer, where this "Francois Poilly around 1660" comes from, but it might well be, that the later Francois Poilly c. 1730 used motifs formed by his earlier relative.

[Later added and replaced: I pointed then with some information to a second Mitelli deck. Meanwhile I've opened a thread to this deck with some improved material ... see at
http://tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=173623
... ]
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