The Empresses Bag? (Noblet)

Hmmmm, first time I've ever heard Tarot referred to as a "Wedding Cake recipe book" but I can see it.. Cooking may also be another name/term for Alchemy.

I see the bag on the Bateleur's table as the Creator's "possibles" bag..., the inside is the darkness of chaos.... out of which light, order & form were called forth. Only the Creator knows what else is in there.... As to should the bag be on his waist, as in a scrip. [purse].. no I think not. The three legged table may be an allusion to the Emerald Table of Hermes Trismegistus.

Just a few thoughts.....

Mac22

Hold onto your hats folks... ready?
I disagree with jmd.

...

Right, now that you've picked yourself up off the floor, let me explain why.

I was sitting on the fence about this one. To me, part of the confusion comes from the line that defines the shield and the bag. Looking at the close up, I see that, at the bottom, the line is clearly part of the shield, the line for the bottom of the bag doesn't really touch it. This would place the shield in front. As I follow the line up, it turns into the line that defines the bag, the top of the shield really doesn't connect with it. As Mac22 said, it's kind of an optical illusion.

Never the less, I have a hard time justifying that the divider line is so curvy, with such indents. Why isn't the side of the shield smoother?

Then I had a thought.. check the Heri! It's generally so closely related to the Noblet it might give me a clue. So here it is:
http://www.tarothistory.com/images/heri.jpg

Unfortunately, it's just not clear enough for me to see if there is a bag there or not; but what is clear is that the side of the shield is pretty smooth. Also note that the Empress is looking to the right rather than straight on.

So I pull up the Dodal
She's looking to the right as well, her shield is smooth. (and damn it, he's lost one of her arms and hands! Naughty, sloppy Dodal!).

Let's check with a Conver style
Eyes to the right, smooth shield.

So, I've kind of got to say that Noblet is simply different. He's different than the Dodal, Payen, Heri, and Conver.

I've got to assume the lines are so curvy, and that the outline forms an illusion of depth, and that it's colored differently, because he wants me to see something there.

I'm happy enough to consider it a bag until a better explanation comes along.

le pendu said:

Hold onto your hats folks... ready?
I disagree with jmd.


I'm happy enough to consider it a bag until a better explanation comes along.

Click to expand...

As I said the optical illusion was put there intentionally in my view.

Like I said to Rosanne on the Bateleur there are many things hidden in TdM.....

I'm enjoying this discussion....

Mac22

Not to be a party pooper- but why does it always have to have an esoteric meaning? Why not bits and pieces to show its gaming qualities? Not that I use tarot for gaming but it was a game too- regardless of what came first. It would seem to me that you might allude to what was been played- for there was the greatest use of the cards. Manufacturers of Cards were not stupid about where their market lay- and it was in the gaming salons and pubs of the punters. ~Rosanne

-----

Vieville Empress



and Emperor



AND
Visconti - Cary-Yale
http://www.tarot.org.il/Cary Yale/Empress.jpg

Visconti -Sforza
http://quatramaran.ens.fr/~madore/visconti-tarots/large/arcanum-03-empress.jpg

--

So we have Vieville and Visconti saying "Weird curves are alright".

Rosanne said:

Not to be a party pooper- but why does it always have to have an esoteric meaning? Why not bits and pieces to show its gaming qualities? Not that I use tarot for gaming but it was a game too- regardless of what came first. It would seem to me that you might allude to what was been played- for there was the greatest use of the cards. Manufacturers of Cards were not stupid about where their market lay- and it was in the gaming salons and pubs of the punters. ~Rosanne

Click to expand...

Always? It doesn't. And I certainly didn't expect to find much beyond the bare basics in either the Noblet or TdM in general. I'm intrigued & delighted to find that the authors have included a few things for others to find.... If not everyone sees them or agrees where or what they are, is ok by me.

Like the cathedrals of Europe they can be viewed in a number of ways 1) House of worship 2) Art 3) Esoteric meaning in both the structure & the art.

It was the ancients who found the constalletions in the night sky. We humans are predisposed to find patterns & meanings. It still amazes me the ancients are often far more complex & sophisticated than I think they are.

Mac22

le pendu! Not only are you disagreeing with jmd (picks self up off the floor), but you are agreeing with me! (Looks like we don't only have cheddar now - private joke - sorry).

I think what Mel pointed out int he Vieville shield is interesting, particularly looking at the Emperor's shield but, getting back to the Noblet and looking at the lines, where possible, the shield has a smoothly rounded bottom left-hand side which should be the same on the other side. Even the Vievile and Visconti show equally drawn, smooth edges at the bottom of the shield. Also that thick brown line painted over the original line work is there for emphasis and quite often drawn in art to 'pull out' an aspect. At least the colourist saw a reason to outline that part of the card, and I wonder why.

So although wierd curves are alright, they are not in the same place as those on the Noblet.

Ah, but now I am back on the fence, having seen the Vieville and Visconti decks, the Noblet isn't so isolated.

But I hope to fall on the side of "believin' in the bag", if only to avoid having to make a public apology to jmd for daring to suggest that he might be wro~

I can't bring myself to say it.

It looks to me like those other shields are not Left/Right symmetrical.

Back to the Empress. Is there any reason historically to believe that this sort of Queen would be holding a bag of grain? She's not an "earth goddess"--she's the wife of the Emperor.

ETA: Wait. Did le Pendu say he was disagreeing with jmd?

??????????

*sigh*

*must....lie....down*