Is this stuff necessary or was it all piled on by those kooky Golden Dawn fellers?
gregory
LOL Doh!!! My poor brain.
*pats Carla's head gently* I guess it wasn't quite clear, really !
Laura Borealis
I'm sorry, I still don't get what the big deal is. It's all just symbolism.
The occultists just looked at the structure of tarot and saw a way to organize a body of esoteric knowledge. 10 sephiroth = 10 small cards; 4 suits = the 4 Qabalistic Worlds; 22 letters in the Hebrew alphabet and 22 paths on the Tree of Life = the 22 Trumps; 36 decans etc. -- it's just using the cards and the structure as symbolism for certain concepts, and it happens to fit very well.
I see it as the occultists using tarot as a key to information that is deep and meaningful. You see them as just "piling on" a bunch of junk that wasn't there to begin with. But if you want to strip off ALL the junk that wasn't there to begin with, you might as well just play tarocci with your cards.
Look at it like this. Most of us accept the four elements = four suits idea, even if we differ on which corresponds to which. But it's not like tarot sprang into being with elemental correspondences. That was "piled on" later, too. ANY symbolism you use, even if it's entirely idiosyncratic, is "piled on." It's meaning added to what originally wasn't there, on these thin pieces of pasteboard with their pretty pictures.
To me, the big problem is not what symbolism is added. It's not WHEN in the history of tarot it was added. The problem is those people who claimed -- and still claim -- that their particular symbolic system is the One True Way. (Crowley is an exception -- he told his students to question everything, even and especially Crowley. )
The occultists just looked at the structure of tarot and saw a way to organize a body of esoteric knowledge. 10 sephiroth = 10 small cards; 4 suits = the 4 Qabalistic Worlds; 22 letters in the Hebrew alphabet and 22 paths on the Tree of Life = the 22 Trumps; 36 decans etc. -- it's just using the cards and the structure as symbolism for certain concepts, and it happens to fit very well.
I see it as the occultists using tarot as a key to information that is deep and meaningful. You see them as just "piling on" a bunch of junk that wasn't there to begin with. But if you want to strip off ALL the junk that wasn't there to begin with, you might as well just play tarocci with your cards.
Look at it like this. Most of us accept the four elements = four suits idea, even if we differ on which corresponds to which. But it's not like tarot sprang into being with elemental correspondences. That was "piled on" later, too. ANY symbolism you use, even if it's entirely idiosyncratic, is "piled on." It's meaning added to what originally wasn't there, on these thin pieces of pasteboard with their pretty pictures.
To me, the big problem is not what symbolism is added. It's not WHEN in the history of tarot it was added. The problem is those people who claimed -- and still claim -- that their particular symbolic system is the One True Way. (Crowley is an exception -- he told his students to question everything, even and especially Crowley.
)Wendywu
Laura - I love that post
Laura Borealis
Laura - I love that post
Thank you
I want to add, I am very sympathetic to Carla's feelings here, and I'm glad she has found validation for her own way of reading the cards. It must indeed be a relief, as she said.
The problem, as I see it, is that some have claimed their way is superior, the only right way, if you don't do it that way then you're just not as good, etc. And the very secrecy of the GD and other occult orders probably tended to breed attitudes of superiority and so on. I have to admit, there are some claims of the original GD that kind of make me roll my eyes... but I don't throw the baby out with the bathwater
I still find much that is meaningful in the system they mapped onto the tarot.Richard
Amen to what laura_borealis has written.
If anyone does not wish to learn the astrological, Qabalistic, and alchemical background of the Thoth, RWS, and other GD inspired decks, then they are in the vast majority. There is no need for anyone to get defensive about it. I am reminded of countless instances in my professional life when someone would say to me (with a prideful expression on their face and in their voice), "I don't understand anything about mathematics!" As if only creepy weirdos care about the foundations of modern science. Sheesh! God save me from defensive attitudes.
If anyone does not wish to learn the astrological, Qabalistic, and alchemical background of the Thoth, RWS, and other GD inspired decks, then they are in the vast majority. There is no need for anyone to get defensive about it. I am reminded of countless instances in my professional life when someone would say to me (with a prideful expression on their face and in their voice), "I don't understand anything about mathematics!" As if only creepy weirdos care about the foundations of modern science. Sheesh! God save me from defensive attitudes.
Carla
I'm sorry, I still don't get what the big deal is. It's all just symbolism.
I see it as the occultists using tarot as a key to information that is deep and meaningful. You see them as just "piling on" a bunch of junk that wasn't there to begin with. But if you want to strip off ALL the junk that wasn't there to begin with, you might as well just play tarocci with your cards.
To me, the big problem is not what symbolism is added. It's not WHEN in the history of tarot it was added. The problem is those people who claimed -- and still claim -- that their particular symbolic system is the One True Way. (Crowley is an exception -- he told his students to question everything, even and especially Crowley.
Well it isn't a big deal really.And actually I don't see it as a bunch of 'junk' necessarily. Just puzzled by it. All I've really done here (or meant to do) is a public clearing up in my own mind of the significance of elemental and astrological attributes--occult trappings--of tarot. For me personally. And that included trying to place it in the grand scheme of tarot history, etc.
The problem, as I see it, is that some have claimed their way is superior, the only right way, if you don't do it that way then you're just not as good, etc. And the very secrecy of the GD and other occult orders probably tended to breed attitudes of superiority and so on. I have to admit, there are some claims of the original GD that kind of make me roll my eyes... but I don't throw the baby out with the bathwater
To be honest, I don't think I've read any post here that actually said that one way is the right way, but I have read lots that strongly imply it. And so I wanted to try to figure out why. Isthere a way that's really better? Where did it come from? Who first thought of it? Where did they get the idea? And what else was there before? That sort of thing.
I don't know that there's any danger of the baby getting thrown out with the bathwater. I've only just begun my explorations, so my bathtub is not even full yet, and the water's still too hot for me to even consider putting the baby in. Maybe all this is just me testing the temperature of the water. I mean, presumably I would have to learn how to read with kabbalah and decans and all that before I could then decide to throw it all out. All I've done so far as is frown at it in puzzlement and ask why it's there.
Hope my thinking out loud hasn't offended anyone.
Anyway, I've been reading Eteilla meanings and stuff in the Huson book and having a good think about it all. It's good for my old perimenopausal brain. Keeps the gears loosened up in there.
vee
I think these threads are interesting, because prior to them, I really did think I was in the minority (at least among serious tarotists like on this forum) that didn't really use astrology or Kabballah. I haven't felt defensive about it-more embarrassed, actually, but it is nice to know that I'm not the only one who has troubles finding it useful or even making sense of it.
That said, I do applaud you guys that have the kinds of minds where it works because 1) I am happy to see anyone finding fullfilment through their methods and 2) you make me want to keep chipping at it, even if it's an egg that will take me a lifetime to crack. Some of the discussions in these threads has made approaching them seem more accessible to me, and I think that in the near future I'll give it another shot. If we're not always trying to learn, we might as well pack up and go home, right? Even if it's not where my main interests in tarot lies, it can't hurt to keep exploring it.
That said, I do applaud you guys that have the kinds of minds where it works because 1) I am happy to see anyone finding fullfilment through their methods and 2) you make me want to keep chipping at it, even if it's an egg that will take me a lifetime to crack. Some of the discussions in these threads has made approaching them seem more accessible to me, and I think that in the near future I'll give it another shot. If we're not always trying to learn, we might as well pack up and go home, right? Even if it's not where my main interests in tarot lies, it can't hurt to keep exploring it.
Fianic
Considering there are decks such as the lenormand and other oracle decks that are perfectly valid for divination and have nothing to do with the GD, it's perfectly fine if you don't adhere to their system.
Laura Borealis
Hope my thinking out loud hasn't offended anyone.
Anyway, I've been reading Eteilla meanings and stuff in the Huson book and having a good think about it all. It's good for my old perimenopausal brain. Keeps the gears loosened up in there.
You certainly haven't offended me
Eteilla meanings! You're one up on me, then. I haven't a clue about Eteilla.
