Is this stuff necessary or was it all piled on by those kooky Golden Dawn fellers?

vee said:

Don't feel dim! There are many types of intelligence. I am sure you have your own reading style that is deep and complex. The thing I find the most frustrating is rigidity in thought. It leads to all kinds of false binaries. Right/wrong way. Smart/dumb way. Thoth/RWS way. Allowing there to be many possibilites of reading the cards doesn't diminish them, it just embraces the true diversity of what the cards can do!

In other words, many ways to eat an Oreo, you know?

Edit: now I want an Oreo. Cursed diet! :shakes fist:

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funny Vee

yup, there are as many ways as there are people, and *all* roads lead to Rome, IMO. We *all* get there in the end.

Sorry for going sideways in your thread, Carla Vee has a great point, though - to not get caught up in rigid systems, and to allow your mind to be as open and as fluid as your intuition

Haha, many ways to eat an Oreo!

You can certainly look at it that way, it's like eating and "simply" eating an oreo vs. someone who is a professional taster and can break down an Oreo into 20 different teeny tiny bits. They can tell you exactly what composes the Oreo just by tasting it. Malcom Gladwell's fascinating book "Blink" describes in detail what these tasters do! Fascinating.

So you can eat the oreo and enjoy it, or you can be a professional, trained taster and taste the oreo and have your in-depth analysis of it. That's how Tarot is. One is not better than the other or more irrelevant than the other.

If your goal is to get the message across in a way yourself or the person you are reading for can easily understand and internalize to make changes in patterns of behavior or empowerment, enlightenment, whatever then study or knowledge of astrology, Kabbalah isn't necessary but it can be useful.

If your goal is to do research and explore the Tarot and delve into those layers (like the food tasters do) then yes, all of the other knowledge is useful and adds those layers.
Frustrating and in depth yes, it is. However it is so fascinating and so worth it. I have learned much delving into the Tarot depths of astrology and esoteric-ism but at the end of the day when my role as a reader is to empower and/or entertain people all of that other knowledge (which I do in some way bring to the table like any other experience I have) plays a role but it isn't the main thing or as important as meat, the message, of the reading itself.

As to the GD and other systems of thought pulling all of the occult knowledge out of thin air and corresponding it to the Tarot absolutely they did not. It is extremely relevant and it isn't an accident or coincidence astrology, kabbalah, esoteric symbolism and occult knowledge fits so well and in line with Tarot. They are all one and one leads to the other. "All roads lead to Rome" and all of these roads lead to the Divine.

One isn't better than the other, and the two need each other. It's like the mystics examining different parts of the elephant but only looking at that one part. In my opinion those who read Tarot intuitively "should" study the esoteric aspect of Tarot and those who study the esoteric side and are all about that "should" let go and read Tarot intuitively. There's the third, which is what exists between these two polarities.

For me the esoteric/occult knowledge was/is fascinating and worth the frustration to learn. In the esoteric study and meditation you raise the vibrations of the earth and connect with the cards on a deep level and integrate the cards into life itself.
That being said when I work at a party, restaurant, or fair I can't read the Thoth to save my life. It just doesn't happen, lol. These systems and knowledge, fascinating and relevant as they are don't (for me anyway) seem to translate in the fast paced party & fair world of reading the cards. In a long consultation the knowledge surfaces, but only to a small degree. If I put everything esoteric I know into a reading it would be information overload and the reading would render itself pretty much useless...in which case it would be an 8 of Swords moment...and then what good would it be? And yet the esoteric knowledge expands the understanding of the cards and their place in our world. A little piece or two esoteric information that I remember at that time might prove to be very significant/relevant to the person I am reading for, and that's just one more moment we have connected, or what I have said has resonated with them.

But both intuition and occult knowledge have their place and both breathe life into the cards. They are equally important and different ways of tasting the oreo, which is wonderful because then everyone and anyone can enjoy it. Tarot is universal, something for everyone.

minrice said:

That being said when I work at a party, restaurant, or fair I can't read the Thoth to save my life. It just doesn't happen, lol. These systems and knowledge, fascinating and relevant as they are don't (for me anyway) seem to translate in the fast paced party & fair world of reading the cards. In a long consultation the knowledge surfaces, but only to a small degree. If I put everything esoteric I know into a reading it would be information overload and the reading would render itself pretty much useless...in which case it would be an 8 of Swords moment...and then what good would it be?

And yet the esoteric knowledge expands the understanding of the cards and their place in our world. A little piece or two esoteric information that I remember at that time might prove to be very significant/relevant to the person I am reading for, and that's just one more moment we have connected, or what I have said has resonated with them..

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I agree entirely with all this. I have never used the Thoth for a public event, nor the RWS itself (in any coloration), nor any very specific narrative-based decks like the Mythic or other mythology-based decks. For fast-paced events, I stick to either straightforward RWS-based decks like the Morgan Greer that have had much of the original RWS symbology removed or streamlined, or, sometimes, non-scenic pips decks (the Davis Celtic, Trevisan Crystal, various Marseilles incarnations).

There are certainly multitudes of folks who use the Thoth (to say nothing of the RWS) at public events, but I am the sort of person who cannot keep from wallowing in information when I am aware of it.

minrice said:

For me the esoteric/occult knowledge was/is fascinating and worth the frustration to learn. In the esoteric study and meditation you raise the vibrations of the earth and connect with the cards on a deep level and integrate the cards into life itself.

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That sounds like a meaningful and worthwhile experience.

minrice said:

As to the GD and other systems of thought pulling all of the occult knowledge out of thin air and corresponding it to the Tarot absolutely they did not. It is extremely relevant and it isn't an accident or coincidence astrology, kabbalah, esoteric symbolism and occult knowledge fits so well and in line with Tarot. They are all one and one leads to the other. "All roads lead to Rome" and all of these roads lead to the Divine.

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Thank you -- I think this needs to be better known. I'm actually a bit shocked that people think the GD just made everything up. They were building on a long, long tradition of Western esotericism.

Minrice, very well said...all of it.

It seems there are two types readers which defines whether they are attracted to or repelled by to the Thoth or the Golden Dawn system.

Intuitive readers who need the freedom to loose their creative minds find using a system such as the Golden Dawn severely limiting, and thus find no use in it.

But truly, how many people in the world really have developed intuitions?

Personally to someone like me who has always relied on logic as their primary mode of thinking (whilst at the same time not trusting intuition/feelings/emotions etc), just looking at an image and relying on intuition does not give accurate readings. So having found the Golden Dawn system which gave me a framework to work in really opened up tarot for me as a tool.

So no it's not absolutely necessary to learn the GD system to give good readings. But to certain people it helps tremendously. You commented that Thoth users feel that the RWS is the 'easy' deck or whatnot. Actually it was the other way around. The RWS requires you to have good intuition where you can just look at the images, at least that was my experience of it which is why I didn't get anywhere with it. The Thoth provided me with the training wheels to provide good readings whilst my intuition is still developing.

Fianic said:

It seems there are two types readers which defines whether they are attracted to or repelled by to the Thoth or the Golden Dawn system.

Intuitive readers who need the freedom to loose their creative minds find using a system such as the Golden Dawn severely limiting, and thus find no use in it.

But truly, how many people in the world really have developed intuitions?

Personally to someone like me who has always relied on logic as their primary mode of thinking (whilst at the same time not trusting intuition/feelings/emotions etc), just looking at an image and relying on intuition does not give accurate readings. So having found the Golden Dawn system which gave me a framework to work in really opened up tarot for me as a tool.

So no it's not absolutely necessary to learn the GD system to give good readings. But to certain people it helps tremendously. You commented that Thoth users feel that the RWS is the 'easy' deck or whatnot. Actually it was the other way around. The RWS requires you to have good intuition where you can just look at the images, at least that was my experience of it which is why I didn't get anywhere with it. The Thoth provided me with the training wheels to provide good readings whilst my intuition is still developing.

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Fianic, wow, that was fascinating! Such an interesting thing to see things from the other side. I personally always let the images guide me, it is as though I can walk through the cards - but - only when I am reading for other people! ;p can't do that for myself.

I can't even begin to imagine how frustrating that must be for you, and I can see where the GD system would suit you really well. There are many, many very logical people I know whose "gut" is very strong, they just don't perceive it as "intuition" - so I think it is awesome that you have gone beyond all that, and dove into the cards and found a way that helped you.

And this just backs up what I said earlier about all roads lead to Rome, and that there are as many ways as there are people and Vee's concept of the Oreo cookie! lol

It's important IMO to realize that when people layer Kabbalah, astrology, numerology that these correspondences are only there to further enhance your understanding of what a card might mean. You aren't (I think) doing an astrology reading on top of a tarot reading. I do like to use bits and pieces of these other esoteric arts to enhance understanding in a reading, but I have to say I totally get why some would not like to use them. The concept of the wheel of the year, for instance, is totally lost on me. Not interested and really don't see the value to add this concept onto a tarot reading or a deck. I really like the Wildwood, but the wheel of the year--forget it! For me anyway.

I like to learn about these correspondences because they are just to me fascinating and occasionally illuminating in terms of understanding a card or reading. It's a lot of fun.

I like different systems for their rich stories and beliefs

I enjoy the Celestial by Clark and Steventen with a blend of GD decanates, constellation myths and painted mythology figures. I like many other decks too that derive from the idea to illustrate an allegory of an image to each card. One other rich deck for me with more connections to Rider Waite allegory is the Alchemical by Robert Place.

I like Aeclectic members usually find diversity here,at least in my eyes.

Tarot to some may be a spiritual tool, a mental or fun pastime, a meditative activity. The depth any reader can derive from a dragon deck in a reading--I have had really friendly and yet insightul readers of dragon decks give me an excellent reading as deeply siignificant as those using a Thoth deck.

There are readers.nowadays who just read deeply wiithout having to know the backstory to the images.

I admire them, but I am also a history fan. The great thing is I am not limited here in how I appreciate or read or enjoy tarot.

..so I do go for looking for the backstory...and the esoteric allegories of occult tarot, even if springing from mistaken beliefs, have taken tarot to fascinating dimensions over time, .


People keep adding artful depths to this set of 78 cards!