A Walk in the Wood...cuts, the Marseilles

nicky said:

At this rate I should be through with the pack by 2012.

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22 trumps, 16 courts, 4 aces--the other 36 won't be quite so interesting. I predict October 2012.

nicky said:

None of these cards had titles. I was lucky enough to have the curator at the Pierpont Morgan take me into a small viewing room last year and see two of them as they are not displayed. (YaY me) (I had to share that as it was very very cool and he was a sweetheart to do it). Sooooooo that said, does it matter what they are called, beyond being able to identify them. If these are understood to be part of a game, which maybe I am wrong here, would the Papesse be easily taken as a trick if she is a comedic type figure ... assuming a female pope is either a parody of the church. Would that lessen her message if one is using divination with this deck? Was this deck the prototype of decks used for the masses? Would the possibility of the card being made to include Sister Manfreda done for the Visconti family translate to the card playing public?

At this rate I should be through with the pack by 2012.

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I think I have read that the Papesse is a metaphorical symbol for "The Church" itself... but, I am not sure it is set in stone or anything, it did make sense to me, to see her that way. How this relates to reading with these cards is another thing altogether... in readings I have never had this card pop up and been able to use it/read it as "The Church" .... myself, I have a hell of a time trying to categorize what is useful to me for reading with these decks and what is interesting history about these decks.... I have yet to find how to combine the two in a workable manner.

Ignoring all the history, I read the female pope as, usually, a woman in authority (like a female boss) or as the subversive underside of established institutions, depending on the situation. In the spirit of gaming, though, it's the "pope has no dick" card.

Debra said:

Ignoring all the history, I read the female pope as, usually, a woman in authority (like a female boss) or as the subversive underside of established institutions, depending on the situation. In the spirit of gaming, though, it's the "pope has no dick" card.

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lol, no dick.

I read the Empress as female in authority...hmmm. How do you see her, if you see the Papesse that way?

You're right about the Empress. I see her as more linked to family, and more traditionally feminine, and much more practical.

It's hard to read Marseille cards. I'm probably doing it wrong.

I like what Enrique does but I feel he makes too much of it.

So I'm interested in seeing how Nicky and starlight make out.

Reading the Marseilles.... I'm sure we all do it differently. I consider the historical aspect and what we either know or sense the duty of the person would have been like. It comes down to the difference is between these two cards, and so The Empress plays a quietly supportive role to her husband, perhaps even influencing him behind the scenes, but she is far more active and involved than the Papesse, who approaches life from a more spiritual, contemplative aspect.

I prefer that the Marseilles is read with respect towards its history, based on the knowledge that each of us has, and where possible I try to avoid the occult meanings for cards... though at times these thoughts pop into the mind and so cannot be ignored.

Debra said:

Ignoring all the history, I read the female pope as, usually, a woman in authority (like a female boss) or as the subversive underside of established institutions, depending on the situation. In the spirit of gaming, though, it's the "pope has no dick" card.

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Here's another thread re. the Papess, a possible link to the frescoes in the Palazzo della Ragione (aka "Il Salone") in Padova (Padua), Italy. (Ross Caldwells' first post).

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=109118&highlight=Papess

This is perhaps where Prudence read of the Papess possibly representing 'the Church' or 'Mother Church' (?).

Bee

Empress

My card has a woman in a wing back chair holding a heraldic shield in her right hand and a scepter in her left. The scepter has an orb and is topped with a even armed cross. She is holding the eagle, on the front of her shield, and it seems as she is protecting it...that fits in with my nurturing concept of the Empress. She looks off to her left, which I view as looking to the future (from my viewer point of reference). She is robed in blue with an underskirt of red. On her head is a red and golden crown. Her legs are parted, which could infer motherhood. Beneath her chin is a golden area, which is perhaps a collar or decoration of some type, but to me, it looks like the beards the Pharaohs donned if I recall correctly. I would love to know what the inverted T decoration on the Orb signifies. If I recall correctly an eagle was used in Alchemical symbolism, but while searching around the net has, I also found reference to Christian iconography, which I know nothing about...
Off to surf the web for clues...

le pendu has enlightened me on the T and O map on the orb... he's my TdM hero


Colors?
Were these decorative only? Do we know of any mention of the colors around or near to the time the cards were produced? As these cards became divinatory (at the very least in parlour games) were the colors consistent?

When I see the Empress, I see her blue over smock and I think water... and really it just might be my deck is colored weird.

Colors aren't consistent. I've got a few cards from an old Conver that's colored differently than others I've seen in the Sotheby's catalog for the big Kaplan sale and in various sites on the web. Flournoy is all about the significance of color in his restorations of historical decks but I don't buy it. Then again, I don't buy astrology either.

I look at how the Empress lines up with the Emperor, direction-wise