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Rosanne 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sworm09 View Post
The "veils" aren't the cards themselves, but the lack of information given about them by the creator. Waite's vow of secrecy left us with a deck that we have to explore basically on our own where most of the other Golden Dawn members that published decks explained themselves rather thoroughly.
Well I think you have to try and look at the time the deck was published.
The general public's view of cards was that you played a card game with cards or you had your Fortune told with them. We have much more now- the Thoth was published decades later than RWS. There were some 'cigarette cards' out there. The public of England had no idea about the History of Tarot- or the cards of Italy or France or Spain in general. Maybe Waite thought the cards would speak for themselves (esoterically) and they do if you carefully look at the images. In the scheme of things, the esoteric society was small and their books and info was private in the main. These questions only come up now because we have at our finger tips, especially with the web, knowledge. Who knew about Tarot and Individuation back in 1910? Waite did not have a public relations team and printers went with a LWB that fits inside the box- you get the same thing with say,Canasta today. Money was hard to come by for items like cards- add a book and we would not have what we have today. Who was into Kabbalah back then? Who understood about Astrology in the way the RWS and Thoth depicts it? A select few only. A hundred years and we have a forum like this- multiple decks- understanding of how you can access the mystery of secret societies, and their personal growth ideals, and readings by people for themsleves and others. A garden in Italy of Tarot sculpture, I doubt would ever have been thought of in 1910. A library of Jewish mysticism is available to give us insight. We are very lucky and I think this is all because of PCS's cards. So regardless, it worked, whether for money or not- and it got you a Tarot deck/s sworm09 and a search for how to use it, give it and yourself meaning- so it does not really matter about Waite's Oath or not does it?
~Rosanne



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Old 02-03-2013 Limited time only: Chat live with a Tarot reader now and get 50% off!     Top   #21
LRichard 
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Rosanne's comments are well worth considering. We are being a bit myopic. Instead of finding fault with what we see as shortcomings due to historical circumstances, let's see what we have now, and take advantage of it.

We should not fault Waite for his oaths, nor can we fault him for his inability to see that a book like PKT would not communicate (assuming that he had Asperberger's Syndrome).

Instead, we have a beautiful Tarot deck which speaks to many people according to their level of understanding. It led me to AT and consequently the revelation that it is related to a philosophical system which is inclusive of everything that exists (and nonexists, in the sense of negative existence).

Yes, I bought PKT at a Theosophical bookshop in Philadelphia PA, around 1958, and it meant nothing to me then. It means a lot to me now, in the light of what I have learned more recently, and an understanding of its self-imposed limitations.

Except for the RWS I would not be futzing around with Tarot at all, the magnificant Crowley Thoth notwithstanding.
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Old 02-03-2013 Limited time only: Chat live with a Tarot reader now and get 50% off!     Top   #22
re-pete-a 
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Quotes:Alchemists hand book" by Frater Albertus.( may 1960)
Sooner or later, most students experience a desire to find an Adept in order to become his pupil or disciple. But no matter how sincere such a desire is, it is futile for the student to attempt to locate a teacher versed in the Grand Arcanum.
"When the student is ready , the Master will appear."
This ancient precept still holds true. One may search, one may aspire, one may work and study hard until the wee hours of the morning, and yet it will not be evidence that he or she will ever attain that priceless jewel:The grand Arcanum.

For it takes more than mere study. An honest heart, a clean heart, a true heart, a benevolent and contrite heart accomplishes more than all the book learning can ever do.

Without a knowledge and an understanding of naural laws and their corresponding spiriual parallels, no one could ever truly be called an Alchemist or a Sage.

End Quote.

This is the heart intelligence referred to. It has no concerns for the heavy anchors of physical attainments...Though the host may or may not possess them.Only the Intellect has those designs...

Rosanne I do like your last post.

Perhaps Waite already knew what was about to transpire in the GD and decided to "get it out there" even though he was skint. PKS 's input as the artist bought it into the material plane of this existance.
Neither made very much from that creation so there must have been a grander scheme in mind...It certainly didn't do them any favours in the popularity department . They took quite some time to circulate.
When they did gain a circulation Crowley decided to cash in on that gravy train. His intellect required and sought that physical support.His reactions to the RWS shows this.

This is my opinion.

Last edited by re-pete-a; 02-03-2013 at 19:02.
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As others have said, Waite's intention was to not publicly reveal the GD secrets, but keep his oath. This was a book for the general public in which he is both introducing a "Secret Tradition" that goes well beyond the GD, and introducing a cartomantic, divinatory tradition.

Waite actually writes quite a bit about the symbolism but in small bits and pieces - for "those who have ears to hear." In other words, he produced a deck and book that would 1) operate on many levels, 2) integrate several different tarot and cartomantic traditions and sets of correspondences, and 3) introduce his concept of the "Secret Tradition" that could be followed up in his other books (of which there are over 50). There is no way that a book for the general public could begin to contain all the information that one accrues through a life-time of occult study and practice, which would be meaningless to the masses. However, both deck and book allude to the deeper meanings, most of which are more deeply explored in his other works.

So, Waite left a clear trail for those who were willing to follow his breadcrumbs. It is a kind of occult puzzle that reveals itself slowly as the person is ready for the next piece.

I've written about and done PPT presentations demonstrating the specific stories that the Minor Arcana illustrate (Pamela Colman Smith was trained to illustrate such stories). Additionally, quite a bit of his written text consist of short quotes from other works that are keys to the deeper meaning (Waite had a photographic memory as noted by several of his friends and colleagues).

The text is a true master-work but requires a dedicated reading of his other books and the works that were his main inspiration - in addition to all the Golden Dawn materials and the book by the continental occultists and mystics that came before him. No one book can contain it all.



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Last edited by Teheuti; 01-04-2013 at 13:55.
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Old 01-04-2013 Limited time only: Chat live with a Tarot reader now and get 50% off!     Top   #24
sworm09 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teheuti View Post
As others have said, Waite's intention was to not publicly reveal the GD secrets, but keep his oath. This was a book for the general public in which he is both introducing a "Secret Tradition" that goes well beyond the GD, and introducing a cartomantic, divinatory tradition.

Waite actually writes quite a bit about the symbolism but in small bits and pieces - for "those who have ears to hear." In other words, he produced a deck and book that would 1) operate on many levels, 2) integrate several different tarot and cartomantic traditions and sets of correspondences, and 3) introduce his concept of the "Secret Tradition" that could be followed up in his other books (of which there are over 50). There is no way that a book for the general public could begin to contain all the information that one accrues through a life-time of occult study and practice, which would be meaningless to the masses. However, both deck and book allude to the deeper meanings, most of which are more deeply explored in his other works.

So, Waite left a clear trail for those who were willing to follow his breadcrumbs. It is a kind of occult puzzle that reveals itself slowly as the person is ready for the next piece.

I've written about and done PPT presentations demonstrating the specific stories that the Minor Arcana illustrate (Pamela Colman Smith was trained to illustrate such stories). Additionally, quite a bit of his written text consist of short quotes from other works that are keys to the deeper meaning (Waite had a photographic memory as noted by several of his friends and colleagues).

The text is a true master-work but requires a dedicated reading of his other books and the works that were his main inspiration - in addition to all the Golden Dawn materials and the book by the continental occultists and mystics that came before him. No one book can contain it all.
It is a bit of a puzzle. Where Crowley ripped the guts out the Golden Dawn system and blatantly displayed esoteric symbolism with little to no veils, Waite was able to incorporate the same symbolism (minus the Thelema stuff of course) in a very discreet way.
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LRichard 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sworm09 View Post
It is a bit of a puzzle. Where Crowley ripped the guts out the Golden Dawn system and blatantly displayed esoteric symbolism with little to no veils, Waite was able to incorporate the same symbolism (minus the Thelema stuff of course) in a very discreet way.
However, if Crowley (or someone) had not blown the lid off the GD, it would have been far more difficult to penetrate Waite's veils.
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arya ishtar 
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The golden dawn sounds a bit like scientology: jump thru our hoops and maybe we'll let you in our super-secret club.

If you have the answers, if you have knowledge that can make it better and easier for fellow human beings, why not share it?

Really take issue with people who think they know it all lording it over those who don't. Seen a bit of that pomposity in this very thread. Leaves a bad taste. People come here to learn, not to be "schooled."

Facts is facts, but manners is manners...



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Quote:
Originally Posted by arya ishtar View Post
The golden dawn sounds a bit like scientology: jump thru our hoops and maybe we'll let you in our super-secret club.

If you have the answers, if you have knowledge that can make it better and easier for fellow human beings, why not share it?

Really take issue with people who think they know it all lording it over those who don't. Seen a bit of that pomposity in this very thread. Leaves a bad taste. People come here to learn, not to be "schooled."

Facts is facts, but manners is manners...
Arya Ishtar, would you please share with us a book that you feel reveals all the answers about the RWS deck (or any other Tarot deck)?



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Quote:
Originally Posted by arya ishtar View Post
The golden dawn sounds a bit like scientology: jump thru our hoops and maybe we'll let you in our super-secret club.

If you have the answers, if you have knowledge that can make it better and easier for fellow human beings, why not share it?

Really take issue with people who think they know it all lording it over those who don't. Seen a bit of that pomposity in this very thread. Leaves a bad taste. People come here to learn, not to be "schooled."

Facts is facts, but manners is manners...
The GD was an initiatory order dedicated not to making Tarot decks, but to magic and rising to higher degrees of consciousness. This was achieved through meditations, rituals and formal study. Much of the knowledge is experiential, and cannot be conveyed intellectually. Better and easier are not always, well, better, as the GD believed one had to work for the knowledge and techniques they imparted, sometimes work very hard. Merely telling someone "this means that" may make it easier, but when talking of an initiatory context, easier might actually mean harder in the long term.

In a way it is like reading War and Peace, with all the difficulty that entails; or reading an abridged version because it is easier. Was Victor Hugo "lording over" others because he wrote a difficult book? All the GD material is published and available, anyone willing to do the work can. Exerting oneself to understanding and meditating deep philosophical concepts isn't jumping through hoops. Not everything can, or should, be "Easy Tarot for Beginners."



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LRichard 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arya ishtar View Post
The golden dawn sounds a bit like scientology: jump thru our hoops and maybe we'll let you in our super-secret club.

If you have the answers, if you have knowledge that can make it better and easier for fellow human beings, why not share it?

Really take issue with people who think they know it all lording it over those who don't. Seen a bit of that pomposity in this very thread. Leaves a bad taste. People come here to learn, not to be "schooled."

Facts is facts, but manners is manners...
Apparently you have never belonged to a legitimate esoteric initiatory order. If you had, you would know that an attitude of superiority over nonmembers is evidence of a serious failure to understand the commitment one has made to become a better instrument of the "divine will." Ego inflation is the antithesis of what one is trying to achieve. The Golden Dawn of the fin de siecle (around 1900) was seriously flawed in many ways, but snootiness and having to jump through hoops to join were not a part of that. Rich and poor and men and women apparently were admitted on an equal basis. I despise pomposity as much as you, but it is a fault of the individual, not the fact that s/he belongs to some organization or other.
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