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Quote:
Originally Posted by RLG View Post
... I find it interesting, and useful in terms of Tarot, and perhaps someone else will also. If not, then I've only used up a few precious hours of life creating a tree structure. I've used up far more of that valuable commodity on things that are far less interesting :-)


Litlluw
RLG
Well ... I think its certainly valuable from a magical perspective .... if;

3. The advantages to be gained from them are chiefly these:
("a") A widening of the horizon of the mind.
("b") An improvement of the control of the mind. *

and avoids

" attributing objective reality or philosophic validity to any of them." *

( " In this book it is spoken of the Sephiroth and the Paths ... " * )

* Liber O
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Dwtw

My mistake, I assumed we were talking about the same meaning of 'lightning flash'. But if the LF is a theoretical construct connecting the 10 sefirot in series as they are created ex nihilo, then I fail to see why the Kircher Tree is any better at explicating a series of 10 emanations than any other arrangement of 10 sefirot, such as the Gra Tree.

Although this is veering even further off topic, it seems logical that the 10 sefirot were influenced by or derived from the tetraktys, which in turn was probably derived from the fact that we count in decimal, due to our ten fingers. Then the next logical step was the 'natural array' where 10 objects in three columns are connected by exactly 22 paths, suggesting a connection with the 22 letters of Hebrew. From this symmetrical array, varieties followed that addressed various doctrinal contingencies or exegesis.

If we consider the LF as merely a theoretical connection between emanated spheres, it seems almost unavoidable that these would be manifested as paths at some point. It is possible to discuss only the 10 spheres, as in the Sefer Yetzirah, but if that was completely satisfactory, no Tree of Life diagram of any type would have ever arisen.

It is true that modern number theory is based in large part on the idea of 'successor', and each integer follows the previous one in unitary steps out of necessity. We need not make an explicit, manifested 'path' between each one, but geometrical diagrams are much richer when they are included.

There certainly is no objective reality to the Tree of Life. It is merely a filing system. 10 spheres could be arranged in a circle, and then one would need 55 paths to connect them all. But 22 seems to have been settled on for the reason stated above. That being established, then we get to play with the Tarot on those paths.

One could, of course, ignore the Alef-bet altogether, and just place the Tarot on the Tree in some systematic order. For example, the last 7 Trumps, which are basically celestial or eschatological in nature, could be the 7 verticals, with the three heavenly bodies as the Middle Pillar. The three Virtues could be the horizontals, with Justice in the center balancing Fortitude and Temperance. The remaining 12 would be the diagonals. Of these 12, one is Death, two are objects, and nine are people; these provide numerous possibilities for arrangement. But such a topic is a discussion for a separate thread.


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Top   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RLG View Post
......My mistake, I assumed we were talking about the same meaning of 'lightning flash'. But if the LF is a theoretical construct connecting the 10 sefirot in series as they are created ex nihilo, then I fail to see why the Kircher Tree is any better at explicating a series of 10 emanations than any other arrangement of 10 sefirot, such as the Gra Tree.......
I don't think anyone has claimed that the Kircher is any better in that respect.
Top   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LRichard View Post
What do you mean? What paths? There's NOTHING. Then ZAP! There are the Sephirot!
After another way of modeling, without the 22 letters/paths (the 22 letters of creation) there are no Sephiroth:

Place the 22 letters as points in a circle - connect each to the next in sequence (a-b/b-g/...Sh-T), that is your first circle. Then connect each to the next but one letter in sequence (a-g/g-h etc), this forms your second circle inside the first (imagine it or draw it as a circle, the circumference of which is formed at the tangent/mid-point of the lines). Then each letter to the third, then fourth etc., In this manner you will end up with 10 concentric circles (plus the point in the center). So after this manner of modeling (which is that of the SY - there is an illustration of it in Kaplan), the ten spheres are a manifestation of combinations of the letters of creation. In this manner of modeling each of the 22 letters is connected with each of the Sephiroth (in combination with another, a 'gate', of which there are 220 or 231, depending upon how you calculate them*).

Just as different combinations of letter pairs form a gate on the circumference of a sphere - so I suppose one could use different pairs of trumps, i.e, pairs adjacent to each other in sequence would be a gate on the first sphere, pairs next but one to each other a gate on the second sphere etc. E.g.,

21 -0 - 1 = 1st sphere (that is the pair trump XXI and Fool, or Fool and Trump I)
20 - 0 - 2 = 2nd sphere
19 - 0 - 3 = 3rd sphere
18 - 0 - 4 = 4th sphere
17 - 0 -5 = 5th sphere
16 - 0 - 6 = 6th sphere
15 - 0 - 7 7th sphere
14 - 0 - 8 = 8th sphere
13 - 0 - 9 = 9th sphere
12 - 0 - 10 = 10 sphere
11 - 0 = central point

Or with trump I :

0 - 1 - 2 = 1st
21 - 1 -3 = 2nd
20 - 1 - 4 = 3rd
etc,.

Attached is a table of 220 possible 'gates' of tarot pairs. The numbers in top row and left hand side column refer to Tarot cards (with Fool 0 as either first or last - makes no difference). The numbers 1-10 in the rest of the table refer to the concentric sphere (first, second, third etc), 11 is the central point.



Kwaw

* In the oldest texts of the SY there are said to be 220. If have 10 concentric circles with 22 lines radiating from the center to the outer circumference, there are 220 points of intersection between the lines and the circles. But the actual number of possible 2 letter combinations without duplication (A-B treated the same as B-A), is 231.
Attached Images
File Type: pdf TarotPairGates220.pdf (95.6 KB, 97 views)
Top   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RLG View Post

Recall that in Genesis, Elohim begins the creation on Sunday, and requires 6 days to complete it. Then the 7th day of rest is the Sabbath. So when using the scheme of letters where Saturn is the first letter, for Saturday, we are somewhat putting the cart before the horse, unless the idea is that the day begins with the evening before, thus Sunday begins Saturday evening. In any event, it makes much more sense, in terms of Genesis, for the days of the week to begin with Sunday instead of Saturday,
This is sort of what Kircher does, albeit he continues with the Chaldean order of the planets, not the days of the week:

Quote:
In the earliest extent manuscripts of both the short and long version [manuscripts K and A in prior post] we find:

Para 42 and 43a:

Short version [K] And with them were carved out seven firmaments, seven earths, seven hours and seven times. Therefore he loved the seventh under heaven.

These are the seven planets in the universe: Sun, Venus, Mercury, Moon, Saturn, Jupiter, Mars. And the days in the years: the seven days of creation. And the seven apertures in mankind: two eyes, two ears, two nostrils, and the mouth.

Long version [A] And with them were carved out seven firmaments, seven earths, seven hours and seven days. Therefore he loved the seventh above everything under heaven.

These are the seven planets in the universe: Sun, Venus, Mercury, Moon, Saturn, Jupiter, Mars. And the seven days: the seven days of creation. And the seven apertures in mankind: two eyes, two ears, two nostrils, and the mouth.
Perhaps having only a partial text, this part of the SY led Kircher to his ordering of the letters/planets:

Beit - Sun
Gimel - Venus
Daleth - Mercury
Kaph - Luna
Peh - Saturn
Resh - Jupiter
Tau - Mars

This is still the Chaldean order, i.e., that of the planetary hours, but starting from the first 7 planetary hours [counting from sunrise] of the first day of creation - that is, the first seven hours from sunrise of Sunday.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LRichard View Post
I don't think anyone has claimed that the Kircher is any better in that respect.
Dwtw

I guess I read your statement incorrectly when you said

"So what if a certain Tree of Life (Kircher) already models both the lightning bolt of creation and the serpent path of return? Why not invent a new Tree of Life which works better…"

You did say Kircher models the LF, but not that it was 'better', so my mistake. But the fact remains that if the LF is theoretical only, then any Tree would model it, and presumably the Serpent as well. So we would have to look to other characteristics of a particle Tree when determining if it is workable for certain purposes.

Litlluw
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Top   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwaw View Post
After another way of modeling, without the 22 letters/paths (the 22 letters of creation) there are no Sephiroth:

Place the 22 letters as points in a circle - connect each to the next in sequence (a-b/b-g/...Sh-T), that is your first circle. Then connect each to the next but one letter in sequence (a-g/g-h etc), this forms your second circle ...
Dwtw

Thanks for mentioning this Kwaw, it's an important point to note that the intersection of the "10 in the 22 directions" can be done from two different approaches. Extending this idea to pairs of trumps as 'gates' can lead to some interesting connections.

Litlluw
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The Sephirot were created in numerical order, but the creation was essentially instantaneous. Hence the Lightning Flash metaphor.
Top   #28
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Dwtw

Got it :-)

What's funny about that metaphor is that actually the lightning we see does not strike the ground from the sky, it travels in the other direction, from the earth to the clouds. Which would mean either that it goes from Malkut to Keter, or it reaffirms the idea of the Tree's roots being in Keter and the branches in Malkut.


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Top   #29
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Metaphors can always be overextended, but yes, the tree is 'upside down' by analogy with literal trees, so the lightning goes 'up' from Kether to Malkuth.

Does that mean that the Hanged Man is really upright?
Top   #30

 





 


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