Tarot Archetypes

smw said:

Nicely put These aspects are very human orientated as you say, feelings, thoughts, intuitions, distortions etc. What about on the more universal grander level such as the Fool archetype under discussion? If the Fool represents all potential and the Qliphotic aspect the reverse.... Isn't that a much bigger kettle of fish? Those forces might make these human ones look like kids in a playground.

Also, maybe even the mercurial spirits/aspects/forces may have more to them than is apparent. Are they always positive and loving? Or do they have their own spectrum. The swastika on the Fool card is interestingly mentioned as a magical weapon in L231, though for the Magician. Lightning flash of creation, whirling thunder bolt...immense power... Hmmm . I can't help thinking of the nazis who used the swastika and how it is often associated now with very dark powerful forces instead of the peaceful symbol used previously in many cultures.

That was a great post that you made earlier

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Thanks I am learning a lot too through the discussions here.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jungian_archetypes

Jung's idea about archetypes is interesting. They are the collective conciousness which exist in all human beings from birth deeply embeddd into the unconciousness.

I feel the Mercurial and Qliphotic aspects are gradable energy, when they say scales and spectrums rather than either Good or Evil clear cut concept.

It is unfortunate that the holy sigil had been adapted to represent the evil authorites at one point in the past, but now we should not feel negative about the sigil, because it was not due the fault of it.

The uneasy feelings towards the sigil seems more poignant in European and the Western countries due to their historical situation, but less so in the Eastern and the Asian countries where the sigil has been used for representing the holy Deity since the ancient times.

smw said:

What about on the more universal grander level such as the Fool archetype under discussion? If the Fool represents all potential and the Qliphotic aspect the reverse.... Isn't that a much bigger kettle of fish? Those forces might make these human ones look like kids in a playground.

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Some schools seem to think that Archetypes are a lot closer to us than we used to think they were, and actually they are everywhere in mundane world seemlingly. Came across an interesting note about Archetypes from a newly published book summary.

http://www.wendricharthouse.com/study/exploring-archetypes/

foolMoon said:

Some schools seem to think that Archetypes are a lot closer to us than we used to think they were, and actually they are everywhere in mundane world seemlingly.

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I'm not familiar with Archetypes being considered closer now... as far as I understand (not necessarily correctly) from Jung's concept of them is that they kind of live metaphorically between the external world and the inner world, the in between realm. Subjective in the sense of connecting to our own personal unconscious and objective (almost external) in the collective part of the unconscious that we may share with others.

That wiki clip (in the later developments section) you put up also mentioned the very interesting idea that the archetypes form the bridge to matter in general .

smw said:

I'm not familiar with Archetypes being considered closer now... as far as I understand (not necessarily correctly) from Jung's concept of them is that they kind of live metaphorically between the external world and the inner world, the in between realm.
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I am also new to the idea that Archetype is a form of energy, which is everwhere around us, that we can meditate on to be more spiritual, aware, arouse the kundalini, enlighten or even unite with the divine as suggested by the newly published book "A Sephirothic Odessey".

I used to think Archetypes are just perceptive primeval ideas which emante to us and to our world as more tangible and sensible beings from the abstract concepts far away somewhere in the corner of the universe or hidden under our deep subconciousness.

However, there seem schools of occultism which go further to make practical use of these abstract concepts such as Tree of Life, Archetypes etc to meditate, study and come to spritual and physical enlightenment, which is interesting.

foolMoon said:

I am also new to the idea that Archetype is a form of energy, which is everwhere around us, that we can meditate on to be more spiritual, aware, arouse the kundalini, enlighten or even unite with the divine as suggested by the newly published book "A Sephirothic Odessey".

I used to think Archetypes are just perceptive primeval ideas which emante to us and to our world as more tangible and sensible beings from the abstract concepts far away somewhere in the corner of the universe or hidden under our deep subconciousness.

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I have only scratched the surface of Archetypes myself.

At the moment, I understand them as being ultimately unknowable, possibly even autonomous, so that does seem quite distant. In this sense they could be energies or forces of some kind that are capable of driving our consciousness further. Interestingly, according to Jung they have a 'numinous' (spiritual or even magical) quality that can inflame and drive our passions, gripping us under their spell. He suggests that the upside is the depth and fullness the experience of them brings. Perhaps, as a positive, love or perceived love as a micro reflection of divine love.

Or the downside of getting sucked up by the strength of these forces in to the chaos of the drives of the collective unconscious. A possible example could be religious fanaticism that is increasing on the world stage at the moment. Just thinking, that might show archetypal forces getting closer in some way...the Fool say with an H bomb at the more extreme pure end of archetypal influence and discord and fighting at a lesser, everyday (more human) level. I am rambling though

foolMoon said:

However, there seem schools of occultism which go further to make practical use of these abstract concepts such as Tree of Life, Archetypes etc to meditate, study and come to spritual and physical enlightenment, which is interesting.

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yes, I think it is interesting and helpful to have practical guides to working with archetypal ideas and the tarot. I guess you can choose which ones resonate with you. Or maybe even work out your own.

Sometimes, this forum scares the hell out of me. Because I've been discussing stuff related to this with my boyfriend and then this appears... Wow xD

foolMoon said:

Thanks I am learning a lot too through the discussions here.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jungian_archetypes

Jung's idea about archetypes is interesting. They are the collective conciousness which exist in all human beings from birth deeply embeddd into the unconciousness.

Click to expand...

This is sort of off-topic (at least, it's uncommon to talk about this), but related to this. There's an interesting videogame series that my boyfriend played and that touched the issues you just talked about. It's called Xenosaga (it's an eastern game, that fortunately wasn't that censored due to being so difficult to understand). I've been trying to decipher the stuff there and it's quite interesting.
The authors developed an idea around the collective conscious/unconscious that I interpreted as a criticism (and quite an interesting one), based on Carl Jung's concepts.
Upon death, the "wills" or souls of people should join the collective unconscious. But there is rejection. This rejection is unavoidable if the soul dies with negative feelings and emotions. It will happen more and more as time goes by (given the number of humans within the lower domain). The rejection of the collective unconscious would lead to a dissipation or scattering of wills and souls, which ultimately would lead to the "destruction" of the universe as we know it. To prevent this "destruction", there was an event called "eternal recurrence", that allowed the universe to restart again and everything would happen again. Eternally.

All of this to say that it's quite interesting to try to picture this in a human timeline. The end of all of the big civilizations. It is possible to see this happening in human history over and over again. Perhaps we are already "suffering" the Eternal Recurrence? Perhaps it's our job to help people so the collective unconscious is whole to prevent the recurrence? Maybe that's why we gathered here. Maybe that's why we use tarot and all the other kinds of enlightenment, so that we can share this with others and help the souls that one day will join the collective unconscious.

I realize all the concepts are not tangible, but the way they are able to connect with our reality... It's scary how much they seem real.

Far reaching as they are, I like your thoughts, Shibiusa. They bring to mind The Neverending Story.

Michael Sternbach said:

Far reaching as they are, I like your thoughts, Shibiusa. They bring to mind The Neverending Story.

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Yes, the creeping "Nothing." Religious fanaticism should be suppressed for the sake of our descendants.

Seriously though, I've got the idea a pantheist might say that archetypes are "immanent" in the fabric of our reality, we are just flawed expressions of them, often defeated by the superimposed cultural and social mores that steer us away from individual perfection. A lot of philosophical horsepower has been expending in trying to come to terms with them.

Shibiusa said:

Sometimes, this forum scares the hell out of me. Because I've been discussing stuff related to this with my boyfriend and then this appears... Wow xD

This is sort of off-topic (at least, it's uncommon to talk about this), but related to this. There's an interesting videogame series that my boyfriend played and that touched the issues you just talked about. It's called Xenosaga (it's an eastern game, that fortunately wasn't that censored due to being so difficult to understand). I've been trying to decipher the stuff there and it's quite interesting.

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It depends on how one sets the scope for the definition of tarot, I would guess. If one says tarot is a pack of paper printed with some images and numbers, then yes, it is off topic. But if one says, tarot is a metaphysical machine which holds the key to all the unknown, hidden and spritual mysteries of the universe, like Ouspensky wrote in his Symbolism of Tarot, then it is not.

Life after death topic is a definite off topic unless we are talking with the believers.