timing of an event

MandMaud

I should say I'm a VERY beginning beginner. At the moment I can't put the time in to study seriously so I'm happy dabbling, playing with ideas, making no effort to get any better at astrology, master techniques or remember terminology. Like the pre-verbal stage of language learning, lots of shapeless impressions, which all feed the fluency that comes years later. Meaning, please don't get too techy at me. :) One day I'll get as far as real "sentences" in the subject!

(This is the way I always learn, I don't have a problem with un-learning bad habits, which is the reason people like to tell me not to play without proper instruction.)

My question is how to pick the time to base the chart on for a wedding. Horary isn't even something I've really looked into - learnt most from Minderwiz's recent reading for me in his thread. (Thanks, Minderwiz!) For a wedding that happened yesterday, if I don't find out the time of the service I'll do a chart for noon, but what should it be ideally - the start time of the service, or the moment the vows are spoken, which is about half an hour later but no one looks at the clock, do they?
 

dadsnook2000

What about . . .

What about "I now pronounce you Man and Wife?"
 

Larxene

MandMaud,

There are varying opinions on this, as can be witnessed by reading this thread: http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=74848

However, unless you are the bride or groom, I believe that the start of the ceremony gives a good indication of the nature of the wedding.



Picking a time for doing something is called "elections", not horary, although they are related. Horary concerns things whose results are less in your control, while elections is better when dealing with things whose results are more in your control (like choosing a wedding date for yourself).

To "elect" simply means to "choose", by the way: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=election

I hope that's not too much jargon for you.
 

MandMaud

What about "I now pronounce you Man and Wife?"
I hadn't thought of that! Good idea, makes sense. :)

MandMaud,

There are varying opinions on this, as can be witnessed by reading this thread: http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=74848

However, unless you are the bride or groom, I believe that the start of the ceremony gives a good indication of the nature of the wedding.
OK... and thank you for finding those two links for me...
I should have been more specific, I realise my first post didn't make it clear that I'm interested not in how the wedding goes, but in the marriage - the ever-after.

Picking a time for doing something is called "elections", not horary, although they are related. Horary concerns things whose results are less in your control, while elections is better when dealing with things whose results are more in your control (like choosing a wedding date for yourself).

To "elect" simply means to "choose", by the way: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=election

I hope that's not too much jargon for you.

No, actually I knew it already :D and I feel mean saying so but I'm a linguist and knew the Latin too - you weren't to know, lol. But *wonderful* to have the Douglas Harper etymology link back! One of the best sites on the web, and I thought it had died because last time I looked it was "domain for sale" (or something similar; this was ages ago). Must have been down temporarily, and without you I had given up, so thank you! :cool2:

In fact this isn't about choosing the date. If it can be done, I'll change the thread title as I realise it's misleading! This wedding happened on Saturday. My question is choosing the time to put into Astrodienst for the chart. :) However the date-choosing link you give has Zarathu's list of rules which I can compare with Saturday's chart and I haven't got much further down the thread yet but there's a lot more to go. :)

Nothing hangs on this, I'm intending to play with it as a way of practising my horary skills and astrology skills in general. So I'll draw some conclusions, and in a few months come back and see how my understanding has grown and probably throw out half of what I concluded first time round - and then again a couple of years later - that's how I learn! I've read loads but have concentrated on people's character, and haven't got many people (especially not many with birth times) to play with. And it doesn't feel like the "loads" sticks in my head very well. No hurry though.

So in summary, to make sure I've understood people:

- if I don't find out the time of the service, I'll say noon;

- if I do find out the time it started, I could use that time ... if I'd been there I could have glanced at my watch for the "I do" or for the "I now pronounce you" but it's up to me? is that right? But using the time printed on the invitations for the service is fine?
 

Minderwiz

The time of the wedding should be on record at the Church/Registry Office/Venue. If you know someone who was invited, they may well have an invitation with the time on it. The local press may also have carried a notice put in by the bride and groom or their relations.

A noon chart is about as general as you can get, and the Ascendant and houses should be treated as very dubious. From memory most weddings tend to be in the afternoon, as it saves hanging about too much before the reception and disco. So you might find that it's more likely to be between 2pm and 4pm.

If you know the time the ceremony starts, then I'd take that for the chart. The commitment has already been made by bride and groom, simply by turning up. There's also an argument about what marriage actually is. Is it the legal contract entered into (by signing the register) or a more spiritual union ('in the sight of God'), in which case Dave's definition fits the bill. Or is it the commitment that's made by having a ceremony (start of the service.

As all of these may well be carried out in the span of forty minutes or so, then there's not much point in casting separate charts, unless the Ascendant changes signs or the Moon makes a precise aspect), which is why I'd go for the start of the service. At a personal level, I actually find that the moment of our engagement is much more significant, than the actual ceremony and that occurred six months (to the day and almost to the minute) earlier.
 

MandMaud

I think I'll be able to find out the start time tomorrow. Yes, I wouldn't be happy if I have to "give up" and go with noon! On a Saturday in May, in a large, centuries-old church, I should think the weddings are over-booked and they'll be fitting up to 8 into the one day...! so it could be any time.

If you know the time the ceremony starts, then I'd take that for the chart. The commitment has already been made by bride and groom, simply by turning up. There's also an argument about what marriage actually is. Is it the legal contract entered into (by signing the register) or a more spiritual union ('in the sight of God'), in which case Dave's definition fits the bill. Or is it the commitment that's made by having a ceremony (start of the service.

These are really good points. Having the congregation as witnesses is one of the reasons for a ceremony, after all.

I actually find that the moment of our engagement is much more significant, than the actual ceremony and that occurred six months (to the day and almost to the minute) earlier.

In the case of this couple, I suspect the commitment to each other was made long before the world knew they were engaged, but yes, the engagement felt like the "point of no return" ;) in my own case too! Your six-month thing would be interesting (if I knew more astrology, lol) in terms of the opposite points of the year... This is exactly why I look forward to looking back and finding I know "quite a lot, actually". You know, how you do with learning. :)

Talking of which, that's another vote for the start time of the service. History will count only that - if future generations ask that much detail, it will be the time printed on the invitations that they're told.
 

Larxene

MandMaud, so basically you want to study an inceptional chart, choices already made by others.

I'm no expert; I recommend that you read Benjamin Dyke's book, "Choices and Inceptions", http://www.bendykes.com/choices.php.


I've been using Etymonline sporadically and so far I've had no problems with it. It's one of the best sources on the history of words, if I do say so myself.
 

MandMaud

MandMaud, so basically you want to study an inceptional chart, choices already made by others.

I'm no expert; I recommend that you read Benjamin Dyke's book, "Choices and Inceptions", http://www.bendykes.com/choices.php.
Inceptional is a new term to me - thank you for the book recommendation. Off to have a look now. :) A whole book may be too much (for now) but I know what to search on when I want some how-to. :)

ETA: So if that's inceptional, and I know what electional is - what's horary? :D

I've been using Etymonline sporadically and so far I've had no problems with it. It's one of the best sources on the history of words, if I do say so myself.
Yep, I love it. :)
 

Larxene

There is no entry on the word "horary" in Etymonline. Google gives this: https://www.google.com/search?q=etymology+horary

I suppose it means something like an astrological reading based on the "hour", which is true.

Just like its brethrens (elections and inceptions), it involves a specific question (unlike natal astrology, which talks about one's life as a whole). It also involves a specific time, which is also something that elections and inceptions require.

I believe the difference lies in the kind of choices one is making. Elections is about choosing the time for making a choice one has already made. It relies on having a reasonably diverse range of times for it to be effective. Inceptions is about studying an event based on when it began. It is arguably more passive than the other two branches, but I believe an inception chart can sometimes inform future actions (though often non-immediate ones). Inceptions is kind of like studying a natal chart, except it is wholly about an event rather than a person.

Horary has two functions; the first is to inquire about the result of something. For example, "will I get the job offer?", "will he propose within x months?", "will I get a pay raise or promotion?", "will he come home?". The second function is about whether one should take a certain course of action. Questions like "should I take up the job offer?", "should I accept his proposal?", "should I move to x?" fall within this category.



In practice, the distinction blurs. In choosing the times, you choose the kind of results that will occur. In choosing the times, you are also choosing the beginning of something, which foretells the nature of the event.
 

MandMaud

Horary has two functions; the first is to inquire about the result of something. For example, "will I get the job offer?", "will he propose within x months?", "will I get a pay raise or promotion?", "will he come home?". The second function is about whether one should take a certain course of action. Questions like "should I take up the job offer?", "should I accept his proposal?", "should I move to x?" fall within this category.
This is the explanation I needed - gets it straight in my own head.;)

In practice, the distinction blurs. In choosing the times, you choose the kind of results that will occur. In choosing the times, you are also choosing the beginning of something, which foretells the nature of the event.
And this gets it even straighter!


This is exactly why I approach cautiously with my questions. So often (less here, than on astrology forums) I'm referred to various sources, websites and books - which I've usually seen already, the online ones anyway.

It's about learning styles. It's the difference between learning to use software (or a sewing machine) from the textbook or distance-learning course, as opposed to fiddling with it while someone who knows a lot is at the other side of the room, not over your shoulder all the time but available for as-and-when questions. That is how I gained most of my computer knowledge (and the reason I can't sew ;)) and it's how, I think, most people learn best. Even when I used to be good at the textbook way (and most people never thrive on that), that only gives understanding but the presence and attention of a more-expert-than-me person gives confidence as well, the confidence to practise.

Which is a slight digression. :D Learning styles are one of my pet soapboxeries.

Since we've got onto the electional/inceptional/horary* thing: inceptional would be the one for considering a change of name by deed poll (which has already happened), wouldn't it? Mine represented the beginning of a new life, to the extent that I think of its date as another birthday (so I get two, like the Queen!). When I get good enough to do it, it will be as an inception ... yes? :)


* choice/beginning/hour.**

** 'hour' meaning 'time', as in "at the tenth hour".