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kalliope  kalliope is offline
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I just wanted to pop in and say I'll be catching up on this thread tonight and tomorrow, Minderwiz. I don't just want to skip ahead to my own analysis! I'm sure I'll have some thoughts in response.

I didn't want you to think I'd disappeared! Thanks again for including me.
Top   #71
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PNA for Kalliope - 2


Preliminary Natal Analysis for Kalliope - 2


Venus

Venus is the last of the nocturnal planets to b examined She is placed in Sagittarius, with the Sun and is under the beams and not configured to the Ascendant. As Venus is the benefic of sect, this is not a particularly good start. So in terms of 'Fitness' she is in a Succedent sign (Sagittarius will be the next sign to ascend, and is the second 'house' of the chart. Being under the beams she is not classified as 'Rising' but is Direct. Her zodiacal placement is being in an 'Alien Place' as she is not in any dignities of her own or in the dignities of a sectmate. It seems that being in an alien place may restrict her influence to the house that she is in. This looks like being below average in terms of Fitness.

In terms of Energy, Venus just makes it into the first house of a quadrant system and thus qualifies as being goaded. But she makes no phase change relative to the Sun in the 14 days surrounding the birth and is in a 'Foreign Trigon', so I'd see this as a somewhat average

In terms of Completion, she is In the opposite sign to the Lot of Fortune and so occupies a Pivotal or Angular place. But she is separated from the Moon (no aspect involved and is in a mutable or bicorporeal sign, which have the least staying power. So here she is below average again.

Venus makes the following configurations:

Venus is under the Sun's Beams, and so will find it difficult to express her basic characteristics.

Venus and the Sun square Jupiter in Pisces (5th House). Jupiter rules both signs, and so is Venus' ruler. In this case although Venus is the earlier in the Zodiac, preceding Jupiter, as the aspect is partile, Jupiter's rays are will overcome Venus. This would be destructive if Jupiter was a malefic, but he is the out of sect benefic and is likely to be a little sympathetic to Venus as Venus' ruler.

Venus and the Sun make a Trine to the Moon, though it is a Trine by sigh, being out of the Moon's 13 degree orb. As Venus and the Sun are earlier in the Zodiac, they will tend to dominate the Moon.

The Sun

The Sun is the Out of Sect Light. Whilst it is not in the rising sign, it would be in the first house of a quadrant chart and therefore there may be some argument that it should be the Sect Light. I've taken the Moon at the moment because it is nearer an angle but having set, the issue becomes a little debatable in the light of my most recent reading.

The Sun's Fitness rating is that it is in a Succedent House, and in the place of a sectmate. For Energy it is goaded and is in it's own Trigon (Fire). For Completeness it too is Angular relative to Fortune but is in a bicorporeal sign and makes no aspect to the Moon by degree (it's separated from the Moon) That seems to be that it's strong in the first two categories but below average in the last.

The Sun's configurations are the same as for Venus, though in the case of the square to Jupiter it is outside the 3 degree orb for aspects by degree and so being eariler in the zodiac will dominate Jupiter (Left sided square).

Jupiter

Jupiter is in it;s own sign of Pisces in the fifth House. So

Fitness: it's in a Succedent Sign, it's Rising and Direct and it's in its own Place - A high score on Fitness.
Energy: It's goaded or energetic, falling in the fourth house of a quadrant system but it does not make any phase change relative to the Sun and it's in a Foreign Trrigon (The three Trigon rulers for Water are Mars, Venus and the Moon) - So it is average or below average energy.
Completness: It's in an angular House relative to Fortune (10th house) but is separated from the Moon and is in a bicorporeal sign. So completion is on the low side.

Jupiter's configurations have been mentioned apart from a Left Sided Trine to Saturn (a trine in the direction of signs). The separation by degree means that Jupiter will dominate, though it should be remembered that the two of them are out of sect and therefore may not act as well as they should.

Saturn

Saturn is the out of sect malefic and is placed in Cancer in the ninth House.

Fitness: In a Cadent or Declining House, Is Rising but Retrograde and in the Place of a Sectmate (the exaltation of Jupiter). Not quite a very high score but the Retrograde status is something to note. It might lead to 'stumbling'

Energy : Saturn is in a Cadent/Declining house by quadrant, so not gaoded. Saturn makes no phase change with the Sun and is in a Foreign Trigon (Saturn has no role as a Trigon Lord for Water). This looks like Low energy

Completeness: Saturn is in a succedent house relative to Fortune, is Separating from the Moon and is in a Cardinal or Tropical Sign. Completeness is probably midlling, being good on starting things, but having relatively low staying power.

Saturn's configurations have been listed under the other planets. but it is worth noticing that the Trines from Venus and Jupiter fall either side of Saturn, so it is bonafied by being 'surrounded' by benefics.
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Porphyry on Rulership of the Nativity.


I've just been reading Porphyry's Introduction to the Tetrabiblios of Ptolemy. This is a commentary written perhaps a 100 years after Ptolemy which tries to throw light on Ptolemy's writings using other Astrologers. He has a section on the 'Sign Runer, the Lord and the Ultimate Ruler' of the Nativity' which also throws light onto Schmidt's PNA and Univeral Hermetics.

He starts with the 'ultimate Ruler' and attributes the following beliefs to the 'ancients'

If the Sun is rising in the East in a Day chart then it should be taken as the Ultimate Ruler. If it's declining in the West (in a day chart) but the Moon is rising in the East, especially if it is in the Ascendant then the Moon should be taken as the Ultimate Ruler, If both Sun and Moon are declining in the West then the Ascendant should be taken as the Ultimate Ruler.

For a Night chart, if the Moon is rising in the East it is the Ultimate Ruler but if it is declining in the West and the Sun is under the horizon but near to it, then the Sun should be taken as the Ultimate Ruler. If both planets are under the horizon but are in an angular or succedent house then the Moon should be taken as the Ultimate Ruler because it's the Sect Light. In general the Light which is closer to an angle should be chosen, then the Light nearer to the East (Ascendant) and then the Sect Light. The Ultimate Ruler seems to correspond with Schmidt's view of one of the lights 'appointing' the Oikodespotes and is concerned with choosing which one.

Porphyry then says the ruler of the sign in which the Ultimate Ruler falls will be the Sign Lord of the Nativity (Oikodespotes). and the Co-ruler will be the ruler of the Bounds in which the Ultimate Ruler is placed. So much seems to be in line with Schmidt's interpretation.

Porphyry then says that some wrtiers have taken the Ruler of the Bounds to be the Sign Lord and used the Ascendant Ruler as co-ruler.Those same authors (he says) use the ruler of the Midheaven as the ruler of the Nativity, if it is in an angular house, it it is not then they will use planets in the midheaven and if there aren't any then they will fall back on the following:

The Ruler of the Ascendant, or any planet placed in the Ascendant, 'whether it be the ruler of the MC, the Moon or the Lot of Fortune' and such a planet would be considered as long as it would have been rising or setting or even making a station in the seven days before or after the nativity (by rising and setting here I take him to mean helical rising or setting)

The planet chose will be the 'supreme ruler' of the nativity and essentially controls the nativity. If two or more planets meet these conditions, then the most powerful planet that is rising will be chosen (from them).

Porphyry also suggest that the pre-natal new of full Moon should be considered (New Moon if the natal Moon is Waxing, Full Moon if the natal Moon is waning). The Sign Ruler and Bounds Ruler would be considered. (presumably they have to satisfy the same criteria out lined above to be chosen)

This seems to explain why the Lord of the Lot of Fortune is considered in Schmidt's system and why the phases relative to the Sun are considered. Schmidt's system of Fitness, Energy and Completion is used to identify which planet is the 'Supreme Ruler'.

Lastly Porphyry says that 'from all these planets the one most sympathetic to the nativity should be chosen as Lord of the chart, which is the planet in the most superior position, this would be the planet that is closest to the Ascendant degree, or most closely placed in the Ascending Sign, or has the greatest power by being in the closest aspect to the Ascendant.

Remember that the last criterion is applied to the planets that make it through to the short list. so to speak.

This is very similar to the Schmidt system but seems to me a little clearer about the process and so it's one that I'll try out in the next Universal Hermetics section for Spiralling and Kalliope and if it works better use if for Jessboo92 as well.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
That's interesting. I've been married to a double water sign (Cancer Ascendant/Pisces Moon) for 36 years and over emotionality and weeping tendencies is not a strong tenedency with her.
I actually meant a Sun and Ascendant in water signs, one of which Cancer + more personal planets in Cancer. I agree with what you wrote about your wife because I am myself well aware of a person with Capricorn Sun, watery Ascendant and most of the personal planets in Cancer but he doesnít fit my observations. However, a person with Cancer Ascendant, water Sun and a stellium in Cancer is another story. Sorry for the confusion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
I think we would know that from an examination of events in the native's life and how they react and deal (or not deal) with them. I'm not sure Hellenistic Astrologers hung out signs offering counselling services but at a modern level that is one of the roles that the Astrologer takes.
OK, Iíll wait for that part.

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Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
I'm not quite sure where the last part begins
Iím not sure either anymore. I just got utterly confused. Iíve re-read the thread three times and itís too much info, I guess. Iíll try again. And I just read your writings on Porphyry and this was the last drop. LOL

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
I think there's a difference between 'vital' and 'drive'. The Sun is certainly necessary for life and I would say it is the engine, though the fuel level is indeed important and positively correlated with vital signs. However if the engine is not connected to the works (no drive shaft or no propeller shaft) then the engine's power is not transmitted to what ever it's meant to drive. Mars is the drive shaft or drive mechanism which translates the engine's power into action. I'm not trying to downgrade the Sun here. If the motor is weak or dead, no matter how wonderful the drive mechanism is, nothing will happen, whereas a strong engine may still produce some action, even with a weak driveshaft. Or if you like the energy of the Sun needs to be able to translate into action and Mars is the planet that's supposed to do that.
OK but what if the works is not in best condition? My Mars is definitely not the works Iíd choose for my car. Yet, seems the car has been going, especially in sports, quite nicely.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
Edited to add:

You have a very strong connection between Sun and Mars, a trine to within 2 degrees. In this case, having done a little more reading around, it looks like the Sun would dominate as Mars 'crashes' into the Sun's (astrological) rays. The trine is a good working link between engine and drive shaft, and actually they might works so well together that you see them as one unit. That's just a thought but it might explain why you tend not to notice Mars in action.
May be thatís it, yes. Thatís why I kept asking about the trine between them. Because Mars doesnít look very well where he is. On the other hand, why is he not playing in transits more significantly? Transits give him the chance as he moves through different houses? There is something Iím missing with him and Iím just thinking, this is not for this thread, I guess though.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronia View Post
I actually meant a Sun and Ascendant in water signs, one of which Cancer + more personal planets in Cancer. I agree with what you wrote about your wife because I am myself well aware of a person with Capricorn Sun, watery Ascendant and most of the personal planets in Cancer but he doesnít fit my observations. However, a person with Cancer Ascendant, water Sun and a stellium in Cancer is another story. Sorry for the confusion.
That actually struck my mind a bit after I'd posted. The traditional method of assesing the Sun in the Temperament calculation is by season and the Sun in Cancer is a Summer Sun, and therefore Choleric, rather than the Phlegmatic of a Winter Sun. Add in Mars and posibly Venus or Jupiter and you would raise the 'emotional' temperature (or indeed a Cancer Ascendant together with Mars and a Summer sign such as Leo or Virgo for the Sun might work, depending on which planets were in there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronia
Iím not sure either anymore. I just got utterly confused. Iíve re-read the thread three times and itís too much info, I guess. Iíll try again. And I just read your writings on Porphyry and this was the last drop. LOL
Well I'm trying to make sense of the material the only way I know, by casting charts and seeing what the outcome is. That's why your feedback on your own experience is so useful. One of the problems I face though is not only trying to get a clears view of the material and if you read it you'd realise that it's often as clear as mud - partly because of their style of writing and partly because it's fragmentary, but also that if I apply some of the methods without some explanation it becomes even more weird and there's no context to make any comprehensible judgement. So thank you for at least trying to follow the thread and reporting back on your views/issues but it isn't completely necessary that you fully understand it (to say the least) and I freely admit that it's taking me several readings of the material to make progress and get some glimmers.

Perhaps I started the thread to early, but at the time I didn't realise where the 'holes' lay in my understanding and how deep they were. So the thread has actually helped me a lot to identify the issues but trying to apply the material to the charts. I think after I've finished the five people in the line (assuming they want to carry on) I'll take a break and do a lot more reading on the gaps. Then return and try some of the latter stuff again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronia
OK but what if the works is not in best condition? My Mars is definitely not the works Iíd choose for my car. Yet, seems the car has been going, especially in sports, quite nicely.
I'm not sure your Mars is out of condition but a sports car is not always the best form of transport LOL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronia
May be thatís it, yes. Thatís why I kept asking about the trine between them. Because Mars doesnít look very well where he is. On the other hand, why is he not playing in transits more significantly? Transits give him the chance as he moves through different houses? There is something Iím missing with him and Iím just thinking, this is not for this thread, I guess though.
Well you assume that Transits are the starting point and as I said early for the Hellenistic Astrologers they were the last port of call] Now it may well be that Mars as an explanatroy variable doesn't work well with your life and that would cast doubts on the validity of either the Hellenistic Approach, or my understanding of it or indeed both. That may take some time to resolve, as I'm sure I'm going to have to revisit the results from these five charts and then do some futher reading before drawing prelimiary conclusions,
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
In this chart the Sun is in the fifth house (Place) and so it is a nocturnal chart, the Sun having set.

This chart also presents me with a similar issue to Ana's. That is the Ascendant is right at the end of a sign. In this case the opposite end to Ana, the very beginning. Her Ascendant is in Taurus, but being born less than two minutes earlier would shift it into Aries. I.m going to take the Ascendant as Taurus, so that makes the Ascendant ruler Venus.

Venus is placed in the seventh house conjunct the Descendant. So Venus is angular (the Greek would translate as 'Pivotal') and therefore is configured to the Ascendant. She is also the benefic of sect and so should be a very positive influence.

Venus

The key conditions of Venus is that she is angular and therefore scores highly on 'Fitness' in terms of her house placement. She is in Detriment, which weakens her zodiacal placement but this is compensated for by Venus being one of the Trigon Lords for the Water Trigon. Indeed during the day she is the main Trigon Lord and then hands over to Mars when the sun has set. Otherwise Venus is totally within the dignities of Mars.

In relation to the Lights, Venus is Direct and Schmidt treats her as rising (when she appears to be setting) It seems that Schmidt defines 'rising' in terms of visibility - if you can't see it then it doesn't rise - discounting being obscured by cloud) The result is that Venus scores highly on 'fitness'.

In terms of 'Energy', Venus is 'goaded' or energetic being conjunct the Descendant. She does not have a key phase change in the seven days either side of the Spiraling's birth but she is in her own Trigon, so she scores above average on Energy.

In terms of Completeness, Venus is actually conjunct the Lot of Fortune and so is Pivotal in relation to it. She's in a fixed sign so that's a second indication of being able to see things through but she is separated from the Moon. This is the only weak indicator out of the nine. So High fitness, high energy and high completeness this looks like a very strongly placed Ascendant ruler.

In terms of configurations, Venus trines the Moon (Left sided), sextiles Saturn (Left sided sextile). In turn she is sextiled by the Sun and Mars from the right (they are both dominant over her) and is trined by Jupiter from the right. Only Mercury is not configured to her, though it's presence in Libra stops her being confined by the malefics, Saturn and Mars.
I'm not entirely sure what to conceive of the 'Trigon Lords', and there's clearly much I have left to study, regarding Hellenistic astrology-- but what I've personally gleaned from my chart via a mish-mash of both modern and traditional astrology correlates well with what you've outlined thus far. As of this past year, I've come to a deeper understanding of how powerful that Venus in Scorpio upon the DC is. From what I've observed, Venus in detriment, along with it being placed on the DC (traditionally considered the place of significant others-- e.g. confidantes, lovers, enemies, significant others, in general) has signified an extreme form of what some astrologer call Venus' 'attraction/repulsion' principle. I've witnessed people react in such extremes, that it's becoming impossible for me to even take anyone seriously anymore-- an extreme Scorpio reaction, on my behalf. A long-time stalker has been revealed; I've probably inadvertently attracted new ones. What is signified by this particular placement, if my understanding is vaguely accurate, is that I attract those who want to 'transform' my existence-- to goad me into a process of 'rebirth' (Scorpio), whether that's through my death, or putting me through the rungs of their highly delusional 'true love'. In modern terms, Pluto is in Scorpio, and within the 7th house, also, which simply amps people's desire to 'mold' me more. It's essentially those who personally are suffering from control issues, from what I've come to observe. The disconnection with the Moon shows that I have not even a instinctual, gut feeling of these control freak's presence in my life-- which to me is a positive thing, as long as they stay away from me. Whatever extreme 'occult' Scorpio energy they send towards me simply doesn't connect at the most basic level (Moon in Pisces in the 12th house-- a disconnection from one's deeper emotional/instinctual state. One whose operations are largely unconscious.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
Mars

Mars is Ascendant ruler's ruler. Mars is in late Virgo and is combust being only 5 degrees from the Sun (and the Sun is applying)

Mars situation is that he's in the fifth House and is therefore configured to the Ascendant and in a succedent house. being combust he doesn't rise that day (in terms of visibility) but Mars is Direct. Mars zodiacal placement is that he is in his own Bounds, so he again scores highly. Overall Mars, score is above average to high.

Mars Energy level is not as good. Mars is not angular, does not make any phase changes in the 7 days either side of Spiraling's birth but is the co-operating Trigon Lord for Earth. So a little below average there.

In terms of Completeness, Mars is sextile to the Lot of Fortune and is in a succedent sign relative to it. Mars is in mutable sign (bicorporeal) and so may not see things through well if at all. The Moon is though applying to an opposition with Mars (and it's the 'applying' that counts). So again Mars is above average here.

In terms of configuration Mars is in a 'meeting with the Sun' (a reasonably close conjunction), Opposes the Moon and is in a right sided sextile to Jupiter (Jupiter is dominant) as well as the sextile to Venus and trine to Saturn (Mars is dominant in both of these.

As the malefic of sect, Mars can be well behaved and may be positively benefical at times.
It's a life and death struggle for me to complete tasks, esp. if I have zero personal interest. Heh, oops. I was wondering if you could elucidate the Moon opp. Mars position further? I'm not entirely sure how, or in what ways, it could be 'above average' in power.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
Moon

The Moon is the Sect Light. She's placed in the eleventh House, which is a succedent House. She is in none of her own dignities, but she is in the Bounds of Mercury and in this chart Mercury is nocturnal (so she is in the place of a sectmate). She is Direct and Rising. So her overall fitness seems to be a little above average.

Her Energy levels are that she is not angular but she is the co-operating Trigon Lord for the Water signs. Energy levels are again just above average. Finally in terms of Completion she's in a succedent House relative to Fortune but is in a bicorporeal sign. I'll take the overall condition as average.

She is configured to Sun and Mars by opposition (which indicates it's around Full Moon (which will come within 24 hours). She is in a right sided sextile to Saturn (Saturn dominates), a right sided trine to Venus (Venus dominates). A Left sided trine to Jupiter (Moon dominates).

This looks like a good start to the Prelimnary Natal Analysis, especially as it looks lime Mars and Moon are bonified by aspects from Jupiter and Venus.
As this is technical jargon I have little understanding of, I'm can't provide substantial feedback. I suppose the fact that my Moon's state is largely a succedent one, it means that I readily glean, and remember whatever wisdom I derive from living an active life (pisces adaptability -- mutable considered a mode of 'wisdom'). Jupiter and Venus bonified provides ready access to a peaceful state of mind, if I so desire it...
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Originally Posted by spiraling View Post
I'm not entirely sure what to conceive of the 'Trigon Lords', and there's clearly much I have left to study, regarding Hellenistic astrology-- but what I've personally gleaned from my chart via a mish-mash of both modern and traditional astrology correlates well with what you've outlined thus far. As of this past year, I've come to a deeper understanding of how powerful that Venus in Scorpio upon the DC is. From what I've observed, Venus in detriment, along with it being placed on the DC (traditionally considered the place of significant others-- e.g. confidantes, lovers, enemies, significant others, in general) has signified an extreme form of what some astrologer call Venus' 'attraction/repulsion' principle. I've witnessed people react in such extremes, that it's becoming impossible for me to even take anyone seriously anymore-- an extreme Scorpio reaction, on my behalf. A long-time stalker has been revealed; I've probably inadvertently attracted new ones. What is signified by this particular placement, if my understanding is vaguely accurate, is that I attract those who want to 'transform' my existence-- to goad me into a process of 'rebirth' (Scorpio), whether that's through my death, or putting me through the rungs of their highly delusional 'true love'. In modern terms, Pluto is in Scorpio, and within the 7th house, also, which simply amps people's desire to 'mold' me more. It's essentially those who personally are suffering from control issues, from what I've come to observe. The disconnection with the Moon shows that I have not even a instinctual, gut feeling of these control freak's presence in my life-- which to me is a positive thing, as long as they stay away from me. Whatever extreme 'occult' Scorpio energy they send towards me simply doesn't connect at the most basic level (Moon in Pisces in the 12th house-- a disconnection from one's deeper emotional/instinctual state. One whose operations are largely unconscious.)
At the moment I'm just assessing planetary strength, the next three stages will draw on, but those observations are quite useful. Venus is separated from the Moon and you're right that disconnection may make it difficult to instinctively pick up on certain areas of your life. However the separation has completed by a matter of a few minutes, so there may be 'echoes' there if you try and work on those instincts. That Mars is under the beams and therefore cannot be seen seems to echo your point about stalkers or other's trying to control you (Mars being Venus' ruler). The sextile between Mars and Venus is not a strong connection and it might be showing that everything seems to be aright at a superficial level, though actually by degree they are inconjunct.


Quote:
It's a life and death struggle for me to complete tasks, esp. if I have zero personal interest. Heh, oops. I was wondering if you could elucidate the Moon opp. Mars position further? I'm not entirely sure how, or in what ways, it could be 'above average' in power.
Robert Schmidt is the pioneer 'explorer' of Hellenistic Astrology and in his account of how it works he sees a connection of a planet to the Moon as being important for completing it's purpose (whatever that happens to be). This is because the Moon more than any other planet was believed to affect what happens here on Earth - it's the mediator between the heaves and Earth Above and Below) without that aspect a planet will have some difficulty expressing in 'terrestial' terms - and those include psychological terms. Mars has an applying opposition from the Moon. At this stage that is 'good' in that it's an indicator that Mars has the strongest connection with the Moon. How that influence is actually manifested my not necessarily be good for you. Mars is the malefic of sect, so he should behave in a more positive way in a nocturnal chart and given other favourable circumstances can actually be beneficial (the bad guy who turns good guy). That ought to be possible in that Mars is in his own Bounds or Terms in Virgo and has a role as a 'co-operating Lord of the Earth Triplicity (Trigon). The Greeks used three rulers for each triplicity (they called them Trigons, which simply means a three sided figure) For Earth these were Moon, Venus and Mars, in that order, for a nocturnal chart. So one thing I need to look for in the next couple of stages is whether Mars will indeed be a good guy or whether he's not as noble as he seems.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiraling
As this is technical jargon I have little understanding of, I'm can't provide substantial feedback. I suppose the fact that my Moon's state is largely a succedent one, it means that I readily glean, and remember whatever wisdom I derive from living an active life (pisces adaptability -- mutable considered a mode of 'wisdom'). Jupiter and Venus bonified provides ready access to a peaceful state of mind, if I so desire it...
Sorry about the technical jargon - I'm still very much at the beginning of the learning curve, so I do have difficulty translating it into more friendly English. I'm hoping that will improve as I get familiar with the material. I have to actually do something repeatedly for it to sink in - hence asking for volunteers. I originally decided I keep to the four stages of Hellenistic Astrology; the prenatal analysis which simply identifes where planets are and what there strengths and weaknesses are; the Universal Hermetics which tries to ascertain how easy or not life should be; the topical analysis looking at the areas of your life and finally the methods (or at least a couple) for analysing what has actually happened to you and what is likely to happen in the future. Stages 3 and 4 are likely to be the more interesting from your point of view, but stage 2 could be interesting too. As I'm getting the hang of at least the outlines of the approach now, I think I can make the second stage and subsequent stages more user friendly. It's worth pointing out though that no one has a complete understanding of the Hellenistic system, especially what it was like in its early years. Even later Hellenistic writers, two or three hundred years down the line couldn't fully agree on what the early system was. Trying to tease out a method though is something I find interesting.

Hellenisitic Astrologers did not practise Astrology in the same way that a twenty first century Astrologer does. They're not really into psychology, despite it being a word of Green origin - the study of your soul or mind. It's more simplistic in that sense but it is also more event oriented (whether that means it works accurately I have yet to discover).
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Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
Yes it is different from the Arab and Medieval apporaches and indeed Robert Schmidt, who runs Project Hindsight argues that we must cast out all our preconception about Astrology before trying it. So he refers to Helios and Selene, instead of Sun and Moon and talks of Images rather the Signs because he thinks it's a better translation of the Greek. Luckily Chris Brennan is not so purist in his approach so I can still call Capricorn, Capricorn and not the Goat Horns.
Ha! to the Goat Horns. I'm glad we can just say Capricorn, too. And Schmidt is SO right about us needing to cast out all of our preconceptions! I'm going to try my best to set aside my modern astrological knowledge when considering my chart's analysis in this thread. I can see that others have had trouble trying to reconcile their modern understanding with the Hellenistic viewpoint, and I think I'll actually grasp the method better if I don't try to do the same.

Quote:
Delphic Oracle has a large learning curve but does have some excelent features, especially relating to predictive methods. It's also got a very good dynamic charting function so a chart can be run forward or backwards in time by anything from a minute to a year. And Time Lord periods can easily be checked against transits, or secondary progressions.

That being said, I got it at half price, which is on offer till the new version comes out. It's just about worth it, especially as there's no other program that does Hellenistic Astrology but I don't think I would have bought it at full price.
Thanks for the comments about Delphic Oracle, and for mentioning the reduced price! If I were deciding between Janus and DO, and I know I'm interested in some medieval techniques, how do you think the battle between them shakes out? The dynamic charting function, and the Time Lord checks against transits, etc., sound great. I'm definitely wanting a program that makes it easiest to find times when transits, returns, progressions, or things like Time Lords, Profections, or Primary Directions overlap. With both modern and traditional methods in mind, I'd like to do a rough sketch of significant time periods coming up for myself and close friends, for observation and learning. It seems like DO would make this easiest. Am I correct?
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Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
Preliminary Natal Analysis for Kalliope

Kalliope has a Nocturnal chart, so the Moon is the Light of Sect. The Ascendant of her chart is in Scorpio with the Ascendant ruler, Mars, in his own sign together with Mercury. So for the first time we have a Helmsman actually at the Helm! As Mercury is there too, whether he will be supportive or troublesome needs to be seen.

Mars

As indicated above Mars is in his own sign and so starts the Fitness rating well, being angular to the Ascendant. He is in one of his own places and is both rising and direct. So Mars scores very highly in terms of Fitness.

In terms of Energy Mars scores highly relative to the horizon, as he would also be in the first house of a quadrant house chart. During the 14 day period around Kalliope's birth Mars has a helical rising 4 days after the birth (appears in the Eastern sky as the Sun separates by more than 15 degrees) and he's in his own Trigon. So Mars scores very highly in terms of Energy.

For Completion, Mars is in a cadent or declining house relative to the Lot of Fortune, and is spearated from the Moon but is in a fixed sign. This seems to be below average. So we ought to expect Mars to support the completion of actions, but not really initiate them and have some trouble seeing them through..
Okay, I'm trying to understand how Fitness, Energy, and Completion are fitting together here. Looking at the comment I've bolded above, is the below-average Completion score enough to overshadow the high Fitness and Energy scores with the result being that Mars can only "support completion" while not really initiating OR completing them? What's the use of all that Fitness and Energy that it's got then? Or was that comment solely with regards to the Completion score, and the Fitness and Energy components will factor in some other way? Am I making sense?

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Mars is the in sect malefic and being in his own sign we should expect that he will be a positive influence in Kaillope's life.
This may be a really basic question, but I feel like I don't quite understand how the Hellenistic Astrologers (or any of the traditional astrologers, really) would define a "positive influence" in a life coming from a malefic planet. Does this simply mean that Mars will handle its Houses competently? Or that transits from Mars will be more so about initiation, action, and energy and less about Mars' more negative qualities (violence and accidents)? Or is it more specifically speaking about how, if it turns out to have a lot of responsibility manning my Ship (I'm thinking it will), that it will perform well?

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Mar is in a close aspect with Mercury (well within the 3 degrees for adherence. Mercury is of the same sect in this chart and is ruled by Mars, who is just in the superior position - slightly earlier in the zodiac. The outcome will be a blend of Mars and Mercury together with other planets that are in close aspect (if any). It certainly adds rational thought to Mars' drive.

Mars/Mercury make two further aspects. The first is a right sided trine to Saturn, who is retrograde in Cancer which is the ninth House. This is another aspect within the 3 degree orb (for both Mars and Mercury) and this should give Mars/Mercury the edge over Saturn, as they are 'hurling rays' at it. Saturn is the out of sect Malefic, so this may well still cause some difficulties.
I can agree with the Mercury/Mars assessment as "adding rational thought to Mars' drive." And while this could be too modern a spin on it, could you also characterize this conjunction as enjoying debate, being too aggressively rational in discussion, or perhaps being argumentative for argument's sake?

As for Saturn causing difficulties for them, how do aspects like these affect things for the Hellenistic astrologers? Do you just mean that Saturn could hinder or restrict any functioning that Mercury & Mars need to do?

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The Moon is the Sect Light. She has set at the time of the birth and is in the sixth House. Her condition is as follows:

Fitness; she is in a declining or cadent house and she has no dignity of her own but is in the place of a sectmate. She is 'rising' in Schmidt's terms, in that she can be seen in the sky when she is above the horizon (she would only not be seen at the time of the New Moon) - this is a below average situation.

Energy; she is not goaded or energetic, as she is in the sixth house of a quadrant chart and she is in a 'Foreign Trigon' , being in Aries, where she is not a Trigon Lord. This again is a below average situation.

Completeness; she is in a succedent house relative to the Lot of Fortune and is in a Cardinal sign. this gives middling completeness - the Moon is good for starting projects but not for finishing them.

Her configurations that have not been mentioned are:

A Left sided square to Saturn in Cancer, the separation is outside the 3 degree orb by a distance. She has two right sided trines to the Sun and to Venus, both of whom are in Sagittarius. Both of these trines are by sign not degree, so Sun and Venus dominate.

The Moon, like Mercury is ruled by Mars, and as already seen, Mars is in good condition and well placed. The strength of Mars may augment the weakness of the Moon.
Oh, my poor Moon, my poor Sect Light! She's in pretty bad shape! I was reading over your latest comments on Rulership according to Porphyry, and wondered if any of those rules push the argument for the Sun as Sect Light. It's confusing, but it seems like the Moon still wins out even though it's a lot weaker than the Sun. Are you still sticking with the Moon for my chart? How would one decide for sure -- by comparing predictions (or past events) using one or the other?
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Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
Venus is the last of the nocturnal planets to b examined She is placed in Sagittarius, with the Sun and is under the beams and not configured to the Ascendant. As Venus is the benefic of sect, this is not a particularly good start. So in terms of 'Fitness' she is in a Succedent sign (Sagittarius will be the next sign to ascend, and is the second 'house' of the chart. Being under the beams she is not classified as 'Rising' but is Direct. Her zodiacal placement is being in an 'Alien Place' as she is not in any dignities of her own or in the dignities of a sectmate. It seems that being in an alien place may restrict her influence to the house that she is in. This looks like being below average in terms of Fitness.

In terms of Energy, Venus just makes it into the first house of a quadrant system and thus qualifies as being goaded. But she makes no phase change relative to the Sun in the 14 days surrounding the birth and is in a 'Foreign Trigon', so I'd see this as a somewhat average

In terms of Completion, she is In the opposite sign to the Lot of Fortune and so occupies a Pivotal or Angular place. But she is separated from the Moon (no aspect involved and is in a mutable or bicorporeal sign, which have the least staying power. So here she is below average again.
Not much to say about Venus except to lament the poor state of my in-sect benefic! Is she the planet in the worst shape yet? I'm used to thinking about my Venus in more modern terms of being freedom-loving in Sagitarrius, a bit out of control due to the square from Jupiter, and lacking in discernment because of the close conjunction with Neptune. It's interesting to switch gears to say that she's not going to be able to express herself or perform her functions well. In her case that means "reconciling and unifying" and also handling the affairs of the 7th and 12th houses, right?

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The Sun is the Out of Sect Light. Whilst it is not in the rising sign, it would be in the first house of a quadrant chart and therefore there may be some argument that it should be the Sect Light. I've taken the Moon at the moment because it is nearer an angle but having set, the issue becomes a little debatable in the light of my most recent reading.

The Sun's Fitness rating is that it is in a Succedent House, and in the place of a sectmate. For Energy it is goaded and is in it's own Trigon (Fire). For Completeness it too is Angular relative to Fortune but is in a bicorporeal sign and makes no aspect to the Moon by degree (it's separated from the Moon) That seems to be that it's strong in the first two categories but below average in the last.

The Sun's configurations are the same as for Venus, though in the case of the square to Jupiter it is outside the 3 degree orb for aspects by degree and so being eariler in the zodiac will dominate Jupiter (Left sided square).
My main question about the Sun I put in my last post, regarding the Sect Light issue.

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Saturn is the out of sect malefic and is placed in Cancer in the ninth House.

Fitness: In a Cadent or Declining House, Is Rising but Retrograde and in the Place of a Sectmate (the exaltation of Jupiter). Not quite a very high score but the Retrograde status is something to note. It might lead to 'stumbling'
So you're saying that aside from the Retrograde, Saturn is considered to be not so badly placed with regard to Fitness? That's surprising to me! Does its debility in Cancer not count for much, or at least much less than the boon of being in the Place of a Sectmate? How it is "rising?" -- is it in relation to the Lot of Fortune in the 8th? (So position relative to Fortuna isn't only for Completion?)

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but it is worth noticing that the Trines from Venus and Jupiter fall either side of Saturn, so it is bonafied by being 'surrounded' by benefics.
Well, at least there's that...
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