The thing about houses and stages of life

MandMaud

I've read that the houses approximately represent the importance (or something) of different stages/ages we go through. So the 1st house relates to infancy and the 12th to old age and death, for instance.

I don't know what to do with this information. Does it mean that the empty houses in my chart represent periods of my life when not much will happen that's very important? For me that's 1, 2, 3 and 12... I'm kind of hoping that I'll be doing lots, in that last phase. As opposed to the alternative.

Minderwiz

MandMaud said:
I've read that the houses approximately represent the importance (or something) of different stages/ages we go through. So the 1st house relates to infancy and the 12th to old age and death, for instance.

I don't know what to do with this information. Does it mean that the empty houses in my chart represent periods of my life when not much will happen that's very important? For me that's 1, 2, 3 and 12... I'm kind of hoping that I'll be doing lots, in that last phase. As opposed to the alternative.

There have been several attempts over the centuries to attempt something similar to your description. The earliest I know of is by Claudius Ptolemy in the second century. He doesn't do it directly by houses but by planets in houses - The Seven Ages of Man, since immortalised by Shakespeare in the All the world's a stage speech in As You Like It.

Ptolemy uses the position of the planets in order from the Earth outwards

The Moon is ages 0-4
Mercury is ages 4-14
Venus is ages 14-22
The Sun is ages 22 - 41
Mars is ages 41 - 56
Jupiter is ages 56 - 68
Saturn is ages 68 to the end of life.

The nature of the ages is read from the signs of the planets in your chart. There are no empty houses because these seven planets all appear in your chart somewhere.

A similar but modern approach can be found in Tracey Marks 'Astrology of Self Development' which uses the planets (including the modern ones) to look at psychological ideas of the process of self development.

The idea of the life span between birth and death has also been built into the house system, though not in a particularly easy way. The Ascendant covers birth by it's very nature. There were two house systems vying for use in Hellenistic times, an eight house system or octotopos in which the final house, the eighth house was the house of death.

The other was a prototype of the more familiar twelve house system or duodecatopos but in that prototype, the seventh house was the house of Death. That is a model with birth associated with the rising of the Sun and death associated with the setting of the Sun. These two systems eventually merged into what we have now, with death remaining in the eighth house. However neither of these two systems looked at other ages as being directly associated with houses.

As with some modern approaches, there were attempts to identify the point of conception and show that in a the chart, but most of those had little basis in biological fact, they were symbolic. Conception charts remain the main way to tackle that part of life.

You will find many attempts in the last sixty years or so to look at the houses as a developmental process from birth through the gradual transition from an egocentric child through socialisation and then intellectual development. These do map the stages to the houses. Much depends on whether you accept the psychological theories that these schemes are based on.

The big problem with that approach isn't so much empty houses but that the housed don't lend themselves to that approach. The houses were not intended as a developmental process, either physical or mental. They don't seem to follow any rational development, for example the house of children (fifth) comes before the house of marriage (seventh) and the house of death (eighth) comes before the house of action and career (the tenth).

In reality it seems that the house system is four groups of three houses, which some Astrologers call the Angular Triads. The name indicates that the angular house (first, fourth, seventh, tenth) lies at the centre of the group. For example, the third house is bretheren, the fourth is parents and the fifth is children - it's a family group. The ninth is the institutions of society - religion and law, the tenth is the king/president and the government and the eleventh is friends, allies, sponsors, society in general.

Both early Western Astrology (Hellenistic and Medieval) and Vedic Astrology looked at various periods of life through systems of Time Lords (excluding Doctor Who) and you will still find these in the Dasha systems of Vedic Astrology. They allow the cycle of life to be looked at more as a continuum from birth to death. Rather like Ptolemy's system, they attach a time length to the planetary rulers of the periods, but are more sophisticated in that they can sub divide the period down into small periods, some a matter of days or hours. I find them a better way of dealing with the problem.

The issue of 'empty houses' is very much a modern problem, because few modern astrolgers use the sign rulers in an effective manner. The affairs of a house are conducted by the planets with in it (if any) and the ruler of the sign on the cusp of the house. That ruler is always in the chart, so it is easy to read the affairs of such a house by reference to the condition and placement of its ruler.

MandMaud

Minderwiz said:
There have been several attempts over the centuries to attempt something similar to your description. The earliest I know of is by Claudius Ptolemy in the second century. He doesn't do it directly by houses but by planets in houses - The Seven Ages of Man, since immortalised by Shakespeare in the All the world's a stage speech in As You Like It.

Ptolemy uses the position of the planets in order from the Earth outwards

The Moon is ages 0-4
Mercury is ages 4-14
Venus is ages 14-22
The Sun is ages 22 - 41
Mars is ages 41 - 56
Jupiter is ages 56 - 68
Saturn is ages 68 to the end of life.

The nature of the ages is read from the signs of the planets in your chart. There are no empty houses because these seven planets all appear in your chart somewhere.

A similar but modern approach can be found in Tracey Marks 'Astrology of Self Development' which uses the planets (including the modern ones) to look at psychological ideas of the process of self development.

The idea of the life span between birth and death has also been built into the house system, though not in a particularly easy way. The Ascendant covers birth by it's very nature. There were two house systems vying for use in Hellenistic times, an eight house system or octotopos in which the final house, the eighth house was the house of death.

The other was a prototype of the more familiar twelve house system or duodecatopos but in that prototype, the seventh house was the house of Death. That is a model with birth associated with the rising of the Sun and death associated with the setting of the Sun. These two systems eventually merged into what we have now, with death remaining in the eighth house. However neither of these two systems looked at other ages as being directly associated with houses.

As with some modern approaches, there were attempts to identify the point of conception and show that in a the chart, but most of those had little basis in biological fact, they were symbolic. Conception charts remain the main way to tackle that part of life.

You will find many attempts in the last sixty years or so to look at the houses as a developmental process from birth through the gradual transition from an egocentric child through socialisation and then intellectual development. These do map the stages to the houses. Much depends on whether you accept the psychological theories that these schemes are based on.

The big problem with that approach isn't so much empty houses but that the housed don't lend themselves to that approach. The houses were not intended as a developmental process, either physical or mental. They don't seem to follow any rational development, for example the house of children (fifth) comes before the house of marriage (seventh) and the house of death (eighth) comes before the house of action and career (the tenth).

This all makes sense to me. Trying to remember where I read about it (more than one place), to look back and see if that makes sense at any level. Just for fun, though, did Ptolemy mean the planets' positions in sign or house (or both)?

While reading that part above, I was already remembering that I've thought in terms of three "quarters" rather than twelve parts.

Minderwiz said:
In reality it seems that the house system is four groups of three houses, which some Astrologers call the Angular Triads. The name indicates that the angular house (first, fourth, seventh, tenth) lies at the centre of the group. For example, the third house is bretheren, the fourth is parents and the fifth is children - it's a family group. The ninth is the institutions of society - religion and law, the tenth is the king/president and the government and the eleventh is friends, allies, sponsors, society in general.

This too makes sense until I think of the triads you don't mention. I can't make a meaningful group of 6th/7th/8th (health/work + partner + death/sex/spirit), or of 12th/1st/2nd (mystical/"face" (I know what I mean)/possessions). Can you make the semantic links that stick these together?

Minderwiz said:
Both early Western Astrology (Hellenistic and Medieval) and Vedic Astrology looked at various periods of life through systems of Time Lords (excluding Doctor Who)

Minderwiz said:
and you will still find these in the Dasha systems of Vedic Astrology. They allow the cycle of life to be looked at more as a continuum from birth to death. Rather like Ptolemy's system, they attach a time length to the planetary rulers of the periods, but are more sophisticated in that they can sub divide the period down into small periods, some a matter of days or hours. I find them a better way of dealing with the problem.

Sooner or later I can see I'll look into Vedic astrology. For now, I'm still stepping very slowly through the shallowest waters of Western.

Minderwiz said:
The issue of 'empty houses' is very much a modern problem, because few modern astrolgers use the sign rulers in an effective manner. The affairs of a house are conducted by the planets with in it (if any) and the ruler of the sign on the cusp of the house. That ruler is always in the chart, so it is easy to read the affairs of such a house by reference to the condition and placement of its ruler.

So, going back to my own chart for example, that would mean that possessions, in my life, happen in an "establishment" - or "career" - way (2nd house, in a Capricorn way)? My 12th-house concerns happen in a Scorpio way?

Minderwiz

MandMaud said:
This all makes sense to me. Trying to remember where I read about it (more than one place), to look back and see if that makes sense at any level. Just for fun, though, did Ptolemy mean the planets' positions in sign or house (or both)?

Ptolemy took signs only, but I did some quick research for this response and there are Hellenistic references to the angles representing stages in life, such as the first being youth and the tenth being maturity and adulthood.

MandMaud said:
This too makes sense until I think of the triads you don't mention. I can't make a meaningful group of 6th/7th/8th (health/work + partner + death/sex/spirit), or of 12th/1st/2nd (mystical/"face" (I know what I mean)/possessions). Can you make the semantic links that stick these together?

You need to go back to the meanings that were originally attached to the houses, rather than modern ones. You will also find it useful to have some knowledge of the joys of the planets.

Saturn joys in the twelfth house and the twelfth house was originally associated with loss including loss of memory - forgetfulness. There used to be a belief that the soul enters the body having travelled through the various planetary spheres, starting with that of Saturn. So we have the entry of the soul into the body through the twelfth house. The first is birth and incarnaton and the second is the realisation and supprot of that incarnation through meeting its material needs.

At the other extreme (sixth, seventh and eighth) we have in the 'natural' circle of planets (that is the one with Cancer on the first house and Capricorn on the seventh) the polarities of light and dark, birth and death (the seventh being the original house of death in the twelve house system. So you could look at it starting in the sixth or Joy of Mars - known as the house of Bad Fortune, which in Hellenistic times was primarily the result of sickness or injury, and those eventually led to death. In turn death leads to the distribution of the material possessions of the deceased. The eighth is associated with the material proceeds of death, that is inheritances, wills and legacies.

You might be able to think of other possible links for these three houses based on the distinction between the mundane world that we cannot fully see or know (the portion of the chart below the horizon) and the world of Spirit, above the horizon. The sixth is the last fully mundane house, so we have the rising above the mundane world through relationships (seventh) and the material consequences, the possessions of the partner or deceased family members. To secure the right to other people's money, we need the social and public structures - the ninth, tenth and eleventh triad.

MandMaud said:
Sooner or later I can see I'll look into Vedic astrology. For now, I'm still stepping very slowly through the shallowest waters of Western.

Hellenistic Astrology would provide a good entry point, as it is the basis of Western Astrology and a good deal of Vedic Astrology. There's clear evidence of its transmission into India.

MandMaud said:
So, going back to my own chart for example, that would mean that possessions, in my life, happen in an "establishment" - or "career" - way (2nd house, in a Capricorn way)? My 12th-house concerns happen in a Scorpio way?

I'm not sure I follow this and I haven't got your chart. But if your second house is empty and has Capricorn on the cusp, you would look to Saturn to give you information about it. Second house matters are likely to require effort and work to keep them in a healthy situation. If Saturn were placed in your tenth house, that would give some improvement, If Saturn is configured to Jupiter or Venus that will also provide a boost. But Saturn never delivers huge amounts.

If your twelfth cusp is in Scorpio, look to Mars, The affairs of the two houses will be connected. Usually the tenant of the house has the most immediate affect and the ruler the most long term effect.

Give me your chart and I'll say a little bit more.

MandMaud

Minderwiz said:
Saturn joys in the twelfth house and the twelfth house was originally associated with loss including loss of memory - forgetfulness. There used to be a belief that the soul enters the body having travelled through the various planetary spheres, starting with that of Saturn. So we have the entry of the soul into the body through the twelfth house. The first is birth and incarnaton and the second is the realisation and supprot of that incarnation through meeting its material needs.

At the other extreme (sixth, seventh and eighth) we have in the 'natural' circle of planets (that is the one with Cancer on the first house and Capricorn on the seventh) the polarities of light and dark, birth and death (the seventh being the original house of death in the twelve house system. So you could look at it starting in the sixth or Joy of Mars - known as the house of Bad Fortune, which in Hellenistic times was primarily the result of sickness or injury, and those eventually led to death. In turn death leads to the distribution of the material possessions of the deceased. The eighth is associated with the material proceeds of death, that is inheritances, wills and legacies.

You might be able to think of other possible links for these three houses based on the distinction between the mundane world that we cannot fully see or know (the portion of the chart below the horizon) and the world of Spirit, above the horizon. The sixth is the last fully mundane house, so we have the rising above the mundane world through relationships (seventh) and the material consequences, the possessions of the partner or deceased family members. To secure the right to other people's money, we need the social and public structures - the ninth, tenth and eleventh triad.

I like this way of thinking, it's the kind of chain of meaning that I need to assimilate things. I'll play with 6th/7th/8th until I get them to work with this concept.

Off at a tangent, too (as I tend to go), the forgetfulness/12th thing makes me think of Lethe - the souls having to drink of the river of forgetfulness before being reborn, so that babies don't remember the underworld and previous life/lives. Fits perfectly with 12th/1st.

Minderwiz said:
Hellenistic Astrology would provide a good entry point, as it is the basis of Western Astrology and a good deal of Vedic Astrology. There's clear evidence of its transmission into India.

Thank you! Now I know to follow links that say Hellenistic. It's such an ocean of information until you begin to know the map, these specific little signposts are valuable.

Minderwiz said:
I'm not sure I follow this and I haven't got your chart. But if your second house is empty and has Capricorn on the cusp, you would look to Saturn to give you information about it. Second house matters are likely to require effort and work to keep them in a healthy situation. If Saturn were placed in your tenth house, that would give some improvement, If Saturn is configured to Jupiter or Venus that will also provide a boost. But Saturn never delivers huge amounts.

If your twelfth cusp is in Scorpio, look to Mars, The affairs of the two houses will be connected. Usually the tenant of the house has the most immediate affect and the ruler the most long term effect.

Give me your chart and I'll say a little bit more.

My chart's attached to post #1.

Saturn is in Aries/4th. I've never been sure how to read this, as I have trouble with the 4th generally. But almost all my troubles regarding material things can be traced to my ex, whose Sun is in Aries - directly and indirectly, he lost me a lot of money and a lot of possessions over the years. I would have been not wealthy but comfortable, otherwise. (There's still time and I'm working on recovery.

) Come to think of it, my whole life would have been better in material ways (though not in other ways) if my dad had been around, which he wasn't - and he's Aries Sun as well. But it seems far too simplistic to relate these things by saying "He's an Aries, so that's him sitting there in my chart!"

But basically, ok, 2nd and 4th house affairs are related. Also 12th connects with the 11th and/or 9th, because the cusp of the 12th is in Scorpio and Mars is in Scorpio/11th, Pluto in Virgo/9th. But I suppose you don't count Pluto

though I feel its character fits Scorpio very well indeed.

Minderwiz

MandMaud said:
Off at a tangent, too (as I tend to go), the forgetfulness/12th thing makes me think of Lethe - the souls having to drink of the river of forgetfulness before being reborn, so that babies don't remember the underworld and previous life/lives. Fits perfectly with 12th/1st.

Yes it does and it's well worth using the concept. Modern House meanings are the product of 2,000 years and the ones emphasised tend to be the ones that the psychological approach uses. But while much of the modern meanings were clearly in place in the first 500 years or so, the very early years saw something a bit more fluid.

MandMaud said:
Thank you! Now I know to follow links that say Hellenistic. It's such an ocean of information until you begin to know the map, these specific little signposts are valuable.

Just two caveats: Firstly Hellenistic Astrology is very different from the Modern stuff. You have to change your mindset, just as you have to in trying out Vedic.

Secondly, we don't have a lot of Hellenistic Texts available. Many were lost in the various book burnings by Roman Emperors. The closure of the Library at Alexandria and a general suppression of Astrology in the later Byzantine Empire. Much that survived did so because firstly Persian Astrologers translated the Greek originals and then very often these were in turn translated into Arabic. Whilst that almost certainly saved them from being lost for ever, by the time they reached us, they had also been translated from Arabic to Latin and then Latin to English. The possibilities of losing the original meanings obviously increases with the number of translations. Modern scholarship is trying to get back to the orginal Greek and if that isn't available, then back to Arabic or Farsi (Persian) versions.

Even so, meanings of words in context are not always clear, so there's debate on exactly what was meant. Those problems really don't exist in Vedic Astrology, where the tradition is continuous.

MandMaud said:
My chart's attached to post #1.

Mmmm...I think I need to see the optician again :bugeyed:

MandMaud said:
Saturn is in Aries/4th. I've never been sure how to read this, as I have trouble with the 4th generally. But almost all my troubles regarding material things can be traced to my ex, whose Sun is in Aries - directly and indirectly, he lost me a lot of money and a lot of possessions over the years. I would have been not wealthy but comfortable, otherwise. (There's still time and I'm working on recovery. ) Come to think of it, my whole life would have been better in material ways (though not in other ways) if my dad had been around, which he wasn't - and he's Aries Sun as well. But it seems far too simplistic to relate these things by saying "He's an Aries, so that's him sitting there in my chart!"

But basically, ok, 2nd and 4th house affairs are related. Also 12th connects with the 11th and/or 9th, because the cusp of the 12th is in Scorpio and Mars is in Scorpio/11th, Pluto in Virgo/9th. But I suppose you don't count Pluto though I feel its character fits Scorpio very well indeed.

Starting at the end LOL. You are right, I don't use Pluto and it's meaning does fit Scorpio very well in Modern terms because the meanings of Scorpio (and indeed Pluto) were amended to make it so. There was actually a significant consensus at one point that Pluto should be given Aries - which would have at least made some sense in the Modern approach as the other two 'new' planets had been given Aquarius (Uranus) and Pisces (Neptune), so the next 'new' planet should have been given Aries both from the view of simple logic but also from a theoretical view, as the old Thema Munda concept stopped at Capricorn. However as this would produce a major digression, I'll not go down that route

Your natal Saturn is in a poor state. It's Retrograde and it's in its Fall. Even worse it afflicts Mercury by square (Mercury is your Descendant ruler and therefore the significator of your ex. Now I had a look at your chart through Whole Sign Houses, and that puts Mercury in the eighth (a bad placment) opposite your second house ruled by Saturn. The eighth also signifies inheritances and other people's money. So afflicted Mercury here is not going to bode well for finances from either source. Saturn is in the dominant position relative to Mercury, so Mercury will definitely find it difficult to deliver what it's supposed to. Basically your ex was not a good partner.

Saturn is certainly near the IC, so there may well be a drain on either real estate or the family in some way from a financial perspective. By whole Sign Houses Saturn is in the fifth house of Good Fortune, which in the ancient world was fundamentally children and good health. So it's no surprise that your financial situation adversely affects your abitity to enjoy life and it might well affect your ability to bear the financial cost of children, without sacrificing elsewhere.

These things don't have to be continuous. They may be one offs, or occur only a couple of times. It doesn't mean that because one partner failed, all partners will fail. Nor does it mean that having financial difficulties relating to family or children will always be present. Unlike Modern Astrology, Hellenistic Astrology recognises that all the chart is not always active and that one signification in a chart may just relate to one event in your life, not constant non stop misery or joy. Even so, Saturn at some point will cause trouble. It's not trouble from which you can't recover, because you have a Day chart and Saturn is less malefic in a Day Chart. Moreover you have Sun in Leo and Jupiter in Leo, they're ninth house in WSH and so will do a fair amount to counteract Saturn in your life. But the financial side that is likely to be the problem area, when one occurs.

MandMaud

Minderwiz said:
Yes it does and it's well worth using the concept. Modern House meanings are the product of 2,000 years and the ones emphasised tend to be the ones that the psychological approach uses. But while much of the modern meanings were clearly in place in the first 500 years or so, the very early years saw something a bit more fluid.

I tend to stick with concepts that "click" with my mental approach - my imagination, I suppose. So yes, I'm sticking with this one.

Minderwiz said:
Just two caveats:

Noted, and thanks. I'm relatively good at mindset-switching (relative to most people); and I'm familiar with the difficulties of translation, as a linguist. One day I'd love to try Farsi, and definitely Arabic, but doubt I will get round to Farsi and even Arabic is a bit ambitious too. But where the Greek exists, its vocabulary will mean something to me. Maybe that's partly why I like the idea of looking into Hellenistic astrology.

Minderwiz said:
Starting at the end LOL. You are right, I don't use Pluto and it's meaning does fit Scorpio very well in Modern terms because the meanings of Scorpio (and indeed Pluto) were amended to make it so. There was actually a significant consensus at one point that Pluto should be given Aries - which would have at least made some sense in the Modern approach as the other two 'new' planets had been given Aquarius (Uranus) and Pisces (Neptune), so the next 'new' planet should have been given Aries both from the view of simple logic but also from a theoretical view, as the old Thema Munda concept stopped at Capricorn. However as this would produce a major digression, I'll not go down that route

Probably better not to!

I'm certainly not up to the history of astrology's development through the centuries. Though this tickles my interest-buds.

Answering your post in two halves... off to read the bit about me, now.

MandMaud

Minderwiz said:
Your natal Saturn is in a poor state. It's Retrograde and it's in its Fall. Even worse it afflicts Mercury by square (Mercury is your Descendant ruler and therefore the significator of your ex. Now I had a look at your chart through Whole Sign Houses, and that puts Mercury in the eighth (a bad placment) opposite your second house ruled by Saturn. The eighth also signifies inheritances and other people's money. So afflicted Mercury here is not going to bode well for finances from either source. Saturn is in the dominant position relative to Mercury, so Mercury will definitely find it difficult to deliver what it's supposed to. Basically your ex was not a good partner.

"Basically your ex was not a good partner." :laugh:

I'd found that out by myself! Money-wise he is dreadful, irresponsible and lies about it, but not just woolly-headed and scared of the details (like anyone who's bad with money), but seems to set out deliberately to buy the most expensive, least value, etc. "Can't afford" to spend £30 today on something that will save £300 over a year, etc. And controlling, knows he's bad with money, but in 24 years I never managed to get any say in the budgeting - which we both knew I'm good at.

Odd about Mercury being his significator. I feel it sums me up pretty well in many ways. Except the siblings association; I'm an only child. But I've always felt an affinity for Mercury, Hermes, Thoth, that lot.

I'm feeling pretty cross with Saturn.

Minderwiz said:
Saturn is certainly near the IC, so there may well be a drain on either real estate or the family in some way from a financial perspective. By whole Sign Houses Saturn is in the fifth house of Good Fortune, which in the ancient world was fundamentally children and good health. So it's no surprise that your financial situation adversely affects your abitity to enjoy life and it might well affect your ability to bear the financial cost of children, without sacrificing elsewhere.

Well, I wasn't interested in money in the early days but because my ex was the main earner, and I didn't know he was making it up depending on the conversation, money was always tight - which in fact it wasn't (he's always earned loads) but it did lead to me being cautious spending on clothes, outings, gifts, everything. Fifth house, eh. I've also had various children and health problems over the years. I have chronic health problems now... and have had post-traumatic stress following childbirth, and (separately) a son who died in infancy. Then my eldest has various troubles that screw with everyone around him, and while the youngest is fine, he has ADHD can be a huge energy drain. The oldest is also costing money because he's just like his dad in those matters - not too much, I'm defending myself against it - and the youngest is home educated which costs, but my ex refuses to help even with the big one-offs because "that's what your child maintenance is for"

(maintenance = alimony). Let alone holidays etc.

Real estate... I inherited from my mother four years ago, and a lot of it went to my ex to make the divorce sums balance (being the only assets the marriage had), then a large chunk went out when my benefits were cut without warning (and without justification) forcing me to buy a car out of what was about to come in when my mother's house sold... there isn't anyone else who I'm going to inherit from in future...

and I've never had a high-earning job, and now am studying all I can about passive income and non-orthodox work so as to earn without being able to go back to the 9-to-5. I have all the skills and the right attitude, but poor health limits (Saturnian word) my hours to about 1/6 of "normal". That is a day a week, equivalent. Meanwhile state benefits (= welfare) look like reducing severely in the next year or so.

Oh, and second house: all the possession I inherited are still heaped in the garage and in every room of the house, because they came here when I was too ill to sort through them, and have been left. Mice looking for nesting materials have probably had most of them, and most of them are fabric as my gran was a dressmaker and toymaker... I was going to use my mum's furniture as ours is 24+ years old(!) and sell the clothes and other things I couldn't use, but instead am living in a warehouse and even just giving it all away is a task bigger than I am. My assumption that a husband, even a lazy one, will join in with sorting through, at least lifting and moving the heavy things, was wrong... In the old days (15+ years ago) I was a hoarder, because I was brought up to be but am not by nature, and most of that stuff is still around too because I was too busy and then not strong enough to clear it. So there isn't as much space in the rooms of this house as their actual size, if you see what I mean.

It would be nice to see something less uncomfortable relating to materialistic concerns in my chart. :neutral:

Minderwiz said:
These things don't have to be continuous. They may be one offs, or occur only a couple of times. It doesn't mean that because one partner failed, all partners will fail. Nor does it mean that having financial difficulties relating to family or children will always be present. Unlike Modern Astrology, Hellenistic Astrology recognises that all the chart is not always active and that one signification in a chart may just relate to one event in your life, not constant non stop misery or joy. Even so, Saturn at some point will cause trouble. It's not trouble from which you can't recover, because you have a Day chart and Saturn is less malefic in a Day Chart. Moreover you have Sun in Leo and Jupiter in Leo, they're ninth house in WSH and so will do a fair amount to counteract Saturn in your life. But the financial side that is likely to be the problem area, when one occurs.

I hope the pattern does turn round. My childhood was pretty privileged, I was never told "can't afford it" or given that as a reason for saying no to anything, though I now know we weren't well-off at all. More than once I've been told I will have a comfortable old age - I honestly can't remember if that has been via astrology, but it's been said in different ways, for different reasons, by completely separate people and even in dream dictionaries (from dreams that didn't appear to have anything in common). In fact that was partly in my mind when I started asking about the houses and the stages of life, wondering if astrology had been one of the ways I heard my old age will be materially ok.

I do like my Sun and Jupiter! Ninth fits me very much, higher education and travel (though during the marriage I hardly travelled, but before it - and, I'm determined, after it - worldwide travel is a major theme). Seeing them in the eighth, though, also fits in many ways, from the various interpretations you get of that house.

Now I will start mindset-switching to take on board that the Saturn side of my chart can be INactive for much of my life.

#MakeItSo

Minderwiz

MandMaud said:
Odd about Mercury being his significator. I feel it sums me up pretty well in many ways. Except the siblings association; I'm an only child. But I've always felt an affinity for Mercury, Hermes, Thoth, that lot.

Mercury is also the ruler of Virgo and through Virgo, Accountants and penny pinchers, and even people whose sense of financial values is distorted.

But at some point he must have been attractive enough to marry him. So there may be other Mercury connections in that.

MandMaud said:
I've also had various children and health problems over the years. I have chronic health problems now... and have had post-traumatic stress following childbirth, and (separately) a son who died in infancy.

You also have Mars in the twelfth, opposite your sixth house of sickness and ill health. Mars is the out of sect malefic in a Day Chart and is the worst planet in your chart. The twelfth is the house of Loss. I wouldn't have mentioned this but you have really confirmed that this configuration has already done some damage. Again that might well be it over and done with.

MandMaud said:
Real estate... I inherited from my mother four years ago, and a lot of it went to my ex to make the divorce sums balance (being the only assets the marriage had), then a large chunk went out when my benefits were cut without warning (and without justification) forcing me to buy a car out of what was about to come in when my mother's house sold... there isn't anyone else who I'm going to inherit from in future...

It seems that particular event has occurred. And it's affected your finance. That might be it in its entirety for Saturn.

MandMaud said:
I hope the pattern does turn round. My childhood was pretty privileged, I was never told "can't afford it" or given that as a reason for saying no to anything, though I now know we weren't well-off at all. More than once I've been told I will have a comfortable old age - I honestly can't remember if that has been via astrology, but it's been said in different ways, for different reasons, by completely separate people and even in dream dictionaries (from dreams that didn't appear to have anything in common). In fact that was partly in my mind when I started asking about the houses and the stages of life, wondering if astrology had been one of the ways I heard my old age will be materially ok.

I do like my Sun and Jupiter! Ninth fits me very much, higher education and travel (though during the marriage I hardly travelled, but before it - and, I'm determined, after it - worldwide travel is a major theme). Seeing them in the eighth, though, also fits in many ways, from the various interpretations you get of that house.

Now I will start mindset-switching to take on board that the Saturn side of my chart can be INactive for much of my life. #MakeItSo

The damage to your health seems the more permanent issue, though it clearly has some implications for your income. I can always look longer term to see if there are good times coming. Something that actually fits in with the original question, looking at the Time Lord period for the future.

MandMaud

Minderwiz said:
Mercury is also the ruler of Virgo and through Virgo, Accountants and penny pinchers, and even people whose sense of financial values is distorted.

I can do penny pinching, detail (nearly went into computer programming), etc. My Virgo in Venus I relate to really enjoying a good tidy-up and being uncomfortable in messy surroundings (as well as the romance stuff of Venus).

Minderwiz said:
But at some point he must have been attractive enough to marry him. So there may be other Mercury connections in that.

He was dynamic, enthusiastic, rising fast in his job, into outdoor activities, and with lots of friends. And attentive. All evaporated either immediately after the wedding, or over the next few years. Also, before getting married, we both agreed that the finances were mine to handle. (That and the drudgery of house and kids, ours to share.)

But his Moon is in Virgo, and his Mercury, Mars, Venus all in Pisces. Time of birth unknown but from knowing him and vague things he heard his mother say, I think "in time for breakfast" so for his chart I picked the time that sunrise was that day. Which puts his Mars in the 11th, Merc and Venus in the 12th, though I think by whole signs they'd all be in the 11th (judging by eye only, Mars may be in the 10th or on the cusp).
Asc Taurus if the hour is correct. Getting too guesswork-y, I know.

Minderwiz said:
You also have Mars in the twelfth, opposite your sixth house of sickness and ill health. Mars is the out of sect malefic in a Day Chart and is the worst planet in your chart. The twelfth is the house of Loss. I wouldn't have mentioned this but you have really confirmed that this configuration has already done some damage. Again that might well be it over and done with.

This is really interesting actually; I haven't made much sense of my Mars so far. Though I've been seeing it in the 11th of course. Still.

Again, I hope this is its effect over with! I've had enough of the health stuff. I have to say that being single and making my own decisions on things that matter, and living by my own body clock (a great benefit of being unable to go out to work regularly), has done wonders for my health and capacity for Doing More, as long as I don't dismiss the warning signs and overdo thing. ("Officially" I have nothing that can get better - but management of the conditions can certainly be better or worse.)

Minderwiz said:
It seems that particular event has occurred. And it's affected your finance. That might be it in its entirety for Saturn.

And again, let's hope... I'm repeating myself.

Minderwiz said:
The damage to your health seems the more permanent issue, though it clearly has some implications for your income. I can always look longer term to see if there are good times coming. Something that actually fits in with the original question, looking at the Time Lord period for the future.

I would love you to. You are generous with your time! As I say, I've wondered about this on and off, but it's always when I think ahead by a decade or a few decades, the question comes back to me. Thinking less passively, not only "What's ahead?" but rather "Where should I focus my efforts?" to line up with the best possible outcome.

I don't want any Plutonian (Tarot Tower) type things any more. I've had enough of suddenly being knocked down. I feel that if life was trying to teach me to get up again, I've learnt that now.

The thing about houses and stages of life

MandMaud

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