RWS suits tell a story in sequence?

ravenest

How would you say this explains the images themselves? If they are allusions to a greater work, would PCS know enough to do them? I'm sorry for sounding argumentative, but it seems there is a contradiction, that there is on one hand evidence for what the images are, but also that Waite left the Minors to her. But she couldn't have stuffed all those things in there, could she? I guess I still don't understand Waite's lack of involvement in the Minors, when they themselves evince his involvement.

Oooh , now you have me wondering about that too. The above explanations dont really address the issue of these story lines in the suits - for me . If Waite ' left much of the specific imagery in the Minors up to Pixie, with some exceptions.' How did these complex embedded story lines (as suggested) get into the minors?



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Is it suggested that Waite summarized it in some text or verbal instruction ( the 'some exceptions' ? ) and gave that to Pixie and she painted the cards with this embedded story line in them when he wasnt around later; that Waite had the story lines of the suits already embedded in the instructions he gave her ?

Or is it suggested that Pixie knew the source material and used her ability to embed the story lines herself? If Waite instructed her to do it, he must have done it previously, before the execution of the artwork.

How does synesthesia help solve the puzzle ? Informational input is needed first to stimulate a variant sensual response .... even if Pixie used this ability to somehow get a story line into the cards, it still doesnt explain the source of the info .

Its a fine conjecture ... but I just cant seem to juggle the presented info to make more than an interesting conjecture and into any factual explanation :confused:

Im not wanting to be argumentative either ... but some things just dont add up for me logically .
 

Teheuti

If Waite ' left much of the specific imagery in the Minors up to Pixie, with some exceptions.' How did these complex embedded story lines (as suggested) get into the minors?
What he left up to Pixie and what he gave her are all totally conjecture. There's nothing to indicate what Pixie worked from.

Is it suggested that Waite summarized it in some text or verbal instruction ( the 'some exceptions'?) and gave that to Pixie and she painted the cards with this embedded story line in them when he wasnt around later; that Waite had the story lines of the suits already embedded in the instructions he gave her ?

Or is it suggested that Pixie knew the source material and used her ability to embed the story lines herself? If Waite instructed her to do it, he must have done it previously, before the execution of the artwork.
Personally I think Waite gave her some written material and may have told her the stories or given her drafts of his books-in-progress. She belonged to his Fellowship of the Golden Dawn; he had written quite a bit about Tarot and cartomancy already and had translated Tarot works from the French. Inner Order information was included even in the Minors - which Pixie did not have access to at her level of initiation, except through what Waite gave her. There is mentioned "help from one other" but we don't know who that person was.

How does synesthesia help solve the puzzle ?
It doesn't solve the puzzle, but the fact that her pictures were described by composers as being what they saw suggests she was highly psychic - which other people who knew her also indicated. That is significant. None of this 'solves the puzzle'. We will probably never have the complete story.

You seem to be asking for incontrovertable proof. We haven't found it and probably never will. Marcus and Tali will be presenting another side of the story that could be equally as important. Some of their information is demonstrated fact, some is very likely and some is far-fetched.

I know from a university class I took in Mexico consisting of writers and artists that someone would present their own original creative work (painting, photography, jewelry, a poem) and the other members of the class would create their own creative works based on it. The "synchronicities" were always fascinating - with some people touching more deeply on the heart of someone else's work than did others. I had a set of spiritual chants come through me (written as poetry) that were based on a selection of jewelry, and the artist said it was what she had experienced when she was creating the works. Go figure!
 

ravenest

Yes, while they may not have spent time together while she working on the minors she could have got the stories earlier in converse or by being involved as a member. I can see that possibility. With (or without) the synesthesia ; " In PKT Waite notes that at times what she drew was not exactly the sense of the card meanings." ?

The way I 'figured' is that outward from is clothing of a vibrational frequency - usually 'set' into fields, but able to vary (change clothes) for the synesthetic ... in a way, it seems the basis of the Theory of Correspondences (to put it VERY simply ).
 

Richard

Whether or not specific legends about the Grail or Hiram Abiff are indicated in the suits, it seems natural (to me anyhow) that tarot should reflect the perennial philosophy from which the legends derive, and therefore similarities between the legends and the minors are not particularly surprising.
 

Teheuti

Whether or not specific legends about the Grail or Hiram Abiff are indicated in the suits, it seems natural (to me anyhow) that tarot should reflect the perennial philosophy from which the legends derive, and therefore similarities between the legends and the minors are not particularly surprising.
I agree. There are archetypal or collective characteristics in the Minors as well as the Majors, that will find parallels in many myths and stories. The question comes when considering how much it could be just sacred chance and how much a deliberate choice. At what point is the closeness of the language, sequence and even illustrations too close, too exact to be unconscious?

Added: Perhaps Pixie was so psychic that she psychically tuned into what Waite was writing at the time and to the Masonic elements that so many people have noted in the cards!
 

imarya

...would PCS know enough to do them? I'm sorry for sounding argumentative, but it seems there is a contradiction, that there is on one hand evidence for what the images are, but also that Waite left the Minors to her. But she couldn't have stuffed all those things in there, could she? I guess I still don't understand Waite's lack of involvement in the Minors, when they themselves evince his involvement.

I think PCS would definitely know enough to do them.

First, as has already been mentioned here and elsewhere, PCS was a trained illustrator. As an artist, PCS developed a distinctive "lined in black" style which echoes Japanese Ukiyo-e. While this may be most familiar to contemporary audiences because that's what is seen in the RWS deck, PCS was certainly not limited to working in that style. As an illustrator, PCS was known for being particularly adept at capturing with her pen what others envisioned.

In addition, as an occultist, Pixie had a rich non-Christian spiritual heritage which precedes and post-dates her association with the Golden Dawn. Not only was she intimately familiar with Jamaican culture, long before she met Waite she had many friends--some of them lifelong--who were known for their interest in the occult. ADDED: She was well-versed in spiritual pursuits long before and long after her association with Waite.

It's also worth noting that a boom in spiritual and esoteric pursuits was occurring at that point in history; secret societies and their mysterious rites were almost a dime a dozen. Magicians and mentalists toured Vaudeville, and in parlors and front rooms everywhere people hosted parties with psychics, mediums and spiritualists. Not only was Golden Dawn not the only game in town, evidence suggests that its members weren't particularly tight-lipped while in the company of their peers.

We know there is a great deal of cross-pollination among members of the Golden Dawn; their independent works attest to this. Even if PCS hadn't attained sufficient rank in the Golden Dawn to have "known" certain things: a) she was plenty knowledgeable in the occult in her own right, b) had the artistic background and professional training to pick up what Waite was putting down, c) is said to have had psychic abilities, and d) who knows what tales were told out of school, amongst members of the Golden Dawn.

FWIW, while I have nothing "solid" to support this claim, I have formed the opinion that Waite's comments about having had to "spoon feed" Pixie are most likely his ego talking.

imarya
 

Teheuti

FWIW, while I have nothing "solid" to support this claim, I have formed the opinion that Waite's comments about having had to "spoon feed" Pixie are most likely his ego talking.
I am of the opposite opinion. So, it's my opinion versus your opinion. Surely we need something more than simply personal opinions to go on? Where is Pixie's occult knowledge demonstrated? Soon after creating the deck she became a Roman Catholic and cut off ties with her occult friends (according to at least one of her friends). The claim at the time was that she found rituals fun. Her Jamaican stories have nothing occult about them, although she seemed to weave a spell in the telling. There are articles and letters written about her at the time that strongly suggest she had psychic abilities, but nothing to suggest any deep knowledge of the occult.

Most of the Golden Dawn members took their vows very seriously. When Crowley began publishing GD papers, MacGregor Mathers initiated a law suit.

Waite's other books (over a hundred books and articles) are filled with allusions to the symbols that appear in the Major Arcana, where they form part of the core of his mystical philosophy. Nothing else that Smith created refers in any way to Tarot or to the Major Arcana symbols.
 

imarya

I am of the opposite opinion. So, it's my opinion versus your opinion. Surely we need something more than simply personal opinions to go on? Where is Pixie's occult knowledge demonstrated? Soon after creating the deck she became a Roman Catholic and cut off ties with her occult friends (according to at least one of her friends). The claim at the time was that she found rituals fun. Her Jamaican stories have nothing occult about them, although she seemed to weave a spell in the telling. There are articles and letters written about her at the time that strongly suggest she had psychic abilities, but nothing to suggest any deep knowledge of the occult.

Most of the Golden Dawn members took their vows very seriously. When Crowley began publishing GD papers, MacGregor Mathers initiated a law suit.

Waite's other books (over a hundred books and articles) are filled with allusions to the symbols that appear in the Major Arcana, where they form part of the core of his mystical philosophy. Nothing else that Smith created refers in any way to Tarot or to the Major Arcana symbols.

Waite's other books (over a hundred books and articles) are filled with allusions to the symbols that appear in the Major Arcana, where they form part of the core of his mystical philosophy. Nothing else that Smith created refers in any way to Tarot or to the Major Arcana symbols.

Hi, Mary!

My comment pertains only to minor arcana and whether PCS developed that imagery with or without Waite's involvement, considering what is known about PCS, what other resources PCS had access to, and Waite's alleged/reported lack of interest in the pips.

While members of the Golden Dawn did not freely discuss things with outsiders, it seems that they were quite open amongst themselves and didn't always agree regarding who should have access to which level of secret knowledge. There seems to have been a fair number of creative differences among them, asking people to leave/resign, and going out on their own to start a "new" movement. That's the sort of thing I refer to when I mention telling tales out of school.

My opinion is just my opinion. When working with an illustrator, if the illustrator is indeed wholly unfamiliar with the subject matter, an author should be prepared to "spoon feed" said illustrator rather than complain about it (as connoted by the choice of the term "spoon feed").

If there's a "story" in the suits, and the author was truly uninterested in that aspect of the endeavor, then I'd posit that it's more likely because an illustrator who was an accomplished storyteller--on stage, in print and via set & costume design as well as graphic illustration--put it there.

While RWS is the first tarot deck to illustrate the pip cards in the manner PCS used, one can see within a few hours' independent research at the British Museum website that there exist not just one or two isolated instances, but centuries' worth of examples of earlier decks of cards of all sorts in which pip and court cards are illustrated to varying degrees--some a little, others quite heavily.

The British Museum is very generous in sharing online examples from its collection of printed ephemera; I'm excited for when other museums follow suit. From accessing that resource alone, one can see that neither Waite nor PCS was not the first person to have the idea to illustrate pip cards. Nor did PCS live in a vacuum.

Consider the various "fortune telling" decks from the 18th and 19th centuries, which seem to have been more social diversion rather than serious divination; the history decks; the cambio, whist, and other playing card decks. Also consider what have come to be known as the Lenormand decks. Among tarot decks, the Vacchetta tarot, which predates RWS by some 15-20 years comes to mind, particularly the court cards and the suit of wands.

However it came about--an idea inspired by other types of cards, a flight of fancy, storylines based on Masonic ritual and Grail lore as retold to PCS by Waite, inspired by psychic intuition, her own knowledge/interest--in order to produce that amount of work in so short a period of time, use of theme would have considerably aided PCS's creative process...especially if, as has been argued, Waite left the minors up to her.

And it definitely gives us something to ponder and debate! :)
 

Teheuti

While members of the Golden Dawn did not freely discuss things with outsiders, it seems that they were quite open amongst themselves and didn't always agree regarding who should have access to which level of secret knowledge.
I'm not sure what you are referring to here - please be more specific. I agree that Crowley seemed to get some knowledge ahead of his grade from Allen Bennett, but it was his attempts to gain access to the Inner Order materials (including Book T) that precipitated the breakup of the original GD. Also, Madame Horos was able to walk away with some of the teaching papers, but that was the result of a spectacular con of Mathers. I didn't come across any other cases while researching _Women of the Golden Dawn_, so I'd like to know more about this.
 

Teheuti

My comment pertains only to minor arcana and whether PCS developed that imagery with or without Waite's involvement
Sorry, I thought I was responding to your comments about his having spoonfed her with the Majors being only ego. I must have misunderstood.