Just when you think you get it..

inanna_tarot

the universe shows you something to confuse you even more. I was liking the idea of the tree of life, it made sense it was settling to my being and then...
http://www.greatdiesis.com/archive/treedomains.html
its all upside down - even the numerology is different. I know about the debate between working up/down the tree, but changing the numbers?
Or am i making a moutain out of a mole hill?

Thanks,
Sezo
x
 

jmd

The numbers are simply those of the grades in the Temples...

hence the GD's usage of 1=10, 2=9, etc

The first of the pair refers to grade 1 in the tenth emanation, grade 2 in the ninth, etc.

The order of emanation is consistent within Kabalah, as well as, for those who work in that manner, the order of grades used by SRIA and its myriad derivatives, including the Golden Dawn and others.
 

venicebard

It probably originates as jmd said, but there is no esoteric ('Judao-mystic') precedent for it, as it arises out of a misunderstanding of the Tree's meaning. The Tree stands for how far we have progressed on the round: self, the tenth sign (direction back towards us). We do not wish to climb backwards! thus the original ordering itself represented grades (unbeknownst to GD, evidently).

As for paths, they would be the interconnections (in the Tree as it exists in Cups, where the triad is the ruling paradigm) between these ten stages we have traversed: organization or integration of capabilities we've had to master to get this far.

Bottom line: that reverse numbering is falacious, and countersymbolic.
 

Aeon418

venicebard said:
It probably originates as jmd said, but there is no esoteric ('Judao-mystic') precedent for it, as it arises out of a misunderstanding of the Tree's meaning.

Bottom line: that reverse numbering is falacious, and countersymbolic.
How can the what the Golden Dawn did with the Tree be falacious and countersymbolic ? Just because it doesn't fit within the Judao-mystic tradition. So what ! Tarot cards aren't part of that tradition but they can still be attributed to the Tree. The uses of the Tree have now gone way beyond the narrow confines of the Judaic tradition.
 

jmd

The uses of the Tree of Life have indeed for centuries gone beyond any stated 'boundaries' of Judaïsm.

Also, numerous people have indeed also made correlations between Tarot and the glyph of the Tree of Life.

However, whether these remain attributes of the Tree, or mere intellectual correlation, may also be legitimately asked. And this even within Golden Dawn-type thinking, for the correlations made were also claimed as more or less attributions of the Tree, supposedly revealing an 'inner secret'.

In that sense, there are good grounds, for those seeking to work in an ongoing fashion with Golden Dawn-type work, to question, and seek to answer (with, obviously, the assistance of one's HGA), whether the correlations are in any manner fallacious.

Incidentally, I do not personally agree with the views of venicebard posted above, as it seems to me that if one is to describe the order or sequence as 'grades' (Keter as first/one, etc.), then it is a description of 'grades' of emanation, and not grades of ascending development that the GD (taking its grading system from earlier orders) sought to exemplify.
 

venicebard

GD, schm-GD

I do not understand the interest in GD, save as a historic curiosity.

But as for the Tree transcending Judaism, duh. The Tree is the map of how we ALL got to be selves, not just Jews (it long transcended Judaism ere Judaism was a twinkle in its father's eye). However, the only surviving teaching concerning it known to us is Jewish, unless one wish to include Christian Cabalah, which has as yet not shown itself to me to be anything more than a refracted image of the Judaic teaching whence it sprang. I, of course, have been accused of peddling this because I relate Qabbalah to the Logos and to Gnosis, but that's another story (and I no Xian).

It would seem to me to be of some importance what the Tree's origin-and-meaning is. And to climb to the 'top' (i.e. root) by retracing all ten steps seems counterproductive considering if we kept on going round in the direction of the first ten it would take only three to reach it, namely the remaining three middot or divine qualities (development thereof). It is important, certainly, to solidify one's gains so to speak, which is probably what the 'pathwork' is all about... but as far as 'grades' are concerned: you retrace your steps while I press on, and we'll 'race'.