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XV LE DIABLE Ishtar Inanna

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kilavaish  kilavaish is offline
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Wink XV LE DIABLE Ishtar Inanna


In TdM the card XV has some very interesting analogy with this representation of Innana/Ishtar :

Since I cant post images on this forum for yet, a link with a gif that compares both :



This shows Inanna nude as described in a very antic text, Inanna's descent to the underworld :

http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/section1/tr141.htm


The very analog details are the bird legs, the nude posture, the wings and the arms.

I wonder from what sources would have copied from the TdM artist who illustrated the XV card, as this relief engraving of Ishtar/Inanna wasn't known as is in the 16th century or earlier.

Supposing the story of Inanna as translated above wasn't known also, we can note that in he card XV of TdM the devil is holding a torch, which is a symbol of Persephone in the myth of Demeter descent to the underworld, a very similar story, which was known in the 16th century.

The theme of the descent in the underworld and its antic roots can be a guide to understand the meaning of the card XV of TdM, or to imagine what the illustrator wanted to carry as concept/principle and what myth associated with.

So what do you think ? Any suggestion ?
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prudence  prudence is offline
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That image was discussed a number of years ago in the TdM or Historical section. I think she was referred to as Lilith in the discussion. I'd post a link to it if I could remember which thread it was in. There is an uncanny similarity to the TdM Devil.
eta~ I found the thread http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=69709&page=3 the image is on page 2.
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kilavaish  kilavaish is offline
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Thanks Prudence, nice to see it already has been compared, hope it's still worth a thread.

The point here is that it seems to be related to the story of Inanna's descent to the underworld, which illustrates quite well the card XV usual meanings and the title LE DIABLE.

Yes, the similarity is very strange, it's like a copy of an illustration of the original.
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prudence  prudence is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kilavaish View Post
Thanks Prudence, nice to see it already has been compared, hope it's still worth a thread.

The point here is that it seems to be related to the story of Inanna's descent to the underworld, which illustrates quite well the card XV usual meanings and the title LE DIABLE.

Yes, the similarity is very strange, it's like a copy of an illustration of the original.
I think it is very much worthy of a new thread and discussion. I was never really satisfied with the explanations I had been given about the similarities. How is it possible that this image on a TdM deck could look so similar to this ancient statue without some kind of knowledge having been passed down through the ages? I do hope some of our tarot history scholars and researchers will see this and add their thoughts.
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kilavaish  kilavaish is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prudence View Post
... How is it possible that this image on a TdM deck could look so similar to this ancient statue without some kind of knowledge having been passed down through the ages? ...
That's the point to discuss in an history section.

I think the antic gods iconography wasn't that unknown in the 16th century, and that the rediscover of them was trendy, like the translations of Plato for ex.

Also, there is one other strange similarity with the antic representation of Ishtar shown above, the left shoulder is broken on both.
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Huck  Huck is offline
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Detail of book picture, Conrad Celtis, Germania (1502 ?), "Mercurius"
(a relative of the Mantegna Tarocchi Mercurius - both with Argus-head, which was popular in Germany around this time)

A combination of wings and feet of a bird should be a common idea, it's likely not necessary to go back to very old times, and it's even not always necessary to assume a devil.
Planets and stars were also flying objects. 16th century astronomy had a preference for new bird names star pictures (they detected a few at the Southern heaven).

Tarot devils before the Marseille Tarot already had this mix: (Hebreo Tarot card devil, Rothschild Tarot devil, Metropolitan woodcut sheet devil, Tarot de Paris devil; the Rosenwald Tarot devil had only birds feet; most of these devils were more or less undressed).
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kilavaish  kilavaish is offline
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We can see some of the devils you mention here.

They all have the bird feets, and we can also notice the right arm on three of them, as in the TdM card.

The TdM devil illustration is the only one to show the two figures below, as on the ishtar representation.

It's like if the artist who drawed the TdM devil found a antic, greek or oriental representation of the devil, more historic, platonic, educative , to illustrate the devil.
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Huck  Huck is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kilavaish View Post
It's like if the artist who drawed the TdM devil found a antic, greek or oriental representation of the devil, more historic, platonic, educative , to illustrate the devil.
... :-) ... The TdM devil has human-looking lower devils, the presented Ishtar-figures has accompanying animals(owls and lions).

Accompanying human figures appear also at other early Trionfi cards, for instance for the Emperor, Empress and pope (see Cary-Yale, also Charles VI) possibly taken from the figures for king and queen and bishops in chess.



Old European chess figures before the invention of the Trionfi cards had this style ...


https://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/iss...e.of.kings.htm

12th century, Southern Italy.
older according http://history.chess.free.fr/charlemagne.htm

Only very few of the old chess men are extant, similar only few of the older Trionfi or Tarot card motifs have come to us. According recent researches we have confirmed high production numbers already between 1452-1465, less high production since 1440 for Trionfi cards.


http://trionfi.com/n/130901/

More than 200 documents still exist for this period (and that's only that, what was found, other material should be still hidden).
The factor of that, what we know not, should be very high, it's very logical, that we know only far less than 1%. From this alone, the perspective of a conclusion, that this or that picture detail should lead back 2000 years back in the past without being used meanwhile in other contexts, looks not very promising ... and it doesn't really help.

Nonetheless, welcome to the researcher world of Tarot history. It's nice, that you have an interest in the older story of the Trionfi and Tarot cards.
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Patrick Booker  Patrick Booker is offline
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The images of Ishtar and the Marseille Devil are compared on pg. 104 of 'Mirror of the Free'; by Nicholas, a book I have discussed on this forum:

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?p=2908430

Swift reproduces an image of a clay plaque from Isin-Larsa, Old Babylonia period (2000 to 1600 BCE).

http://www.vaxxine.com/mirrorofthefree/

http://www.ancient-origins.net/opini...e-tarot-001364

http://pelicanist.blogspot.co.uk/201...ing-cards.html

Patrick
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