Horary charts : how to figure out answers and their TIME FRAME?

Sophie

Thank you, Minderwiz! You really are a Wiz!!

Minderwiz said:
I also cast an event chart and horary chart today and just to please Herr Jung's notion of synchronicity, mine aslo have Leo rising and the Sun on the MC., so I guess my chart looks very much like yours, even though the questions are different.

I take it you're not looking for Mr or Ms Right? :laugh:

- I love such synchronicities.

Firstly, his significator and yours are in an applying trine. That suggests a favourable outcome and as Saturn is retrograde, that suggests he will return to you or will 'hurry' back to meet you. Both planets are applying so this muddies the timing.

OK, I can see that. It's the muddied timing that prompted me to post. BTW - does that also mean he hurries off again when Saturn goes direct, or is that not relevant in a horary reading?

The Sun's aspect to the seventh cusp might provide some background, a reflection of tension between you but it in no way frustrates the trine being perfected.

In terms of timing, we have the Sun in an Angular house (slow time) and Fixed Sgn (Also Slow). Saturn is in the Second House (Medium term) and Mutable sign (also Medium term) The combination of Long and Medum term suggest a longer time period than medium only. However the double application suggests some speeding up. Moreover as you've both power to act (volition) this would suggest a further speeding up. The Sun must travel some 8 degrees to perfect the Trine. So we're talking 8 time units.

OK, I follow that. I hadn't thought of the double application speeding things up, though of course it would, even with slow Saturn.

Now from what you've said this isn't a short term job, you suggest months rather than weeks. So that would suggest a favourable resolution in eight months. That seem too long a period given the chart. So medium term is likely to be measured in weeks - so that would give a period of eight weeks.

Is there an in-between possible? Not that I don't WANT it to be sooner rather than later, but I wondered about how those 8 units of time are measured. That's quite a stretch between 8 weeks and 8 months.

The last major aspect of the Moon is the sextile to the Mars, Venus conjunction in the ninth. and it's next major aspect is a square to Saturn, from the tenth. Is the volition there to speed things up or is the work/career situation the thing that is going to slow down progress here?

Now that is a possibility, as he is contracted to work where he is until August, and I've just started a new course where I am. That doesn't mean we wouldn't be able to meet at all, but as for being in the same country at the same time for any length of time to build the kind of stable relationship we'd both be into, then yes, I can see how work/career situation might interfere, even if we fully reconcile and decide to get back together.

What do you think about the 10th House also indicating the social situation between us and the social status of the relationship? I ask because this has been an issue in the past and I would like it resolved, or any 7th house questions will be put under stress again. The Jupiter in the 7th-MC near-exact sextile seemed to suggest this might be eased. But that would be more or less now, and I can't see any sign of that. Maybe it's something that can only come to light when the trine between significators is perfected?

Sophie

Minderwiz said:
The Moon will square Saturn before the Sun can perfect the Trine as the Moon is a faster planet and also only has to travel 7 degrees. Does this constitute prohibition?

Normally in a horary the Moon is assigned to the querent (you) so assuming that no third party (currently hidden from view) or organisation is involved (such as a hospital or charity) the question is, can you actully prohibit your own reunion - that is, should we consider this aspect?

Is there a possibility it could be a third party? He is going through a very protracted, painful and contested separation from someone he's been married to for 3 decades. The separation/divorce started several months before we met, but it's gone through all sorts of comings and goings, reconciliations to please the family followed by renewed separation. She is resisting it, as is a part of his family. He has got to be very depressed by the whole situation and physically sick. It was his inability to follow through on his decision to separate - and making himself sick - that eventually led me to come back to my own country after 3 months with him last year. Limbo is no good for me, for him, or for his family. I decided to take some distance and let things work themselves out, as they will.

So could the Moon mean someone else but me? I considered that. I got confused trying to figure the role his wife plays - the 7th from the 2nd (8th) is ruled by Saturn too, which is his significator, so I need to choose something else. I had a look at "the mother of his children" - starting 5th from 2nd (6th) then counting 10 - that brings us to the 3rd, which is ruled by Mercury. Mercury is in the 10th, at 27°29 Taurus. There is no aspect to his significator, but within time there is a square - not, I think, before the trine between our two significators, if I've understood the timings right.

There is also the organisation he works for - it's not sure where they'll send him next, though he would like to come back to the HQ, which is where I live and where we met. Could the Moon, ruler of the 9th, be that organisation? It's a medical-humanitarian organisation.

The Moon is normally the querent, isn't it, unless it is clearly someone else's by virtue of ruling a house associated with someone else's role?

Complicated this horary business (yes, I realise my love life is complicated too

)

Minderwiz

Fudugazi said:
Is there a possibility it could be a third party? He is going through a very protracted, painful and contested separation from someone he's been married to for 3 decades.

When I posted, I had no idea what the Moon could signify, other than your co-significator. That's why I posed the final statement s a question.

If I had been doing the horary, I would have discussed a whole range of things around the question, so that I was sure I knew the circumstances that gave rise to the question. BUT unless you had specifically mentioned the possibility of a third party intervention as part of the question then the Moon would be yours.

I would not think it signifies his estranged partner. I took my examples from the Moon's rulership of the twelfth and his 'ex' is not a hidden person, from what you've said. Incidentally, I'm a bit confused by your last prost, which refers to the Moon as ruler of the ninth. In yout original post on this horary you refer to your significator as the Sun in the tenth. That clearly suggests a Leo Ascendant, and the Moon as ruler of the twelfth (unless Leo rules both twelfth and Ascendant)

Now various organisations are ruled by the twelfth, hospitals, prisons, monasteries, convents are clear examples. Now a medical/humanitarian organisation gives something of a problem. It's not an institution in the classic sense, but neither is it a business (eighth) or governmental agency (eleventh), nor is it quite a religious organisation (ninth). I'd probably go for the twelfth but to be perfectly honest I'd need to think very carefully about it's nature.

So if the Moon's not you, it might be this organisation. However if you gave yourself the Moon, then I'd say we have to run with it and say the Moon is your cosignificator. If the organiation is important we'd probably have decided to give it another planet as significator, one which best represented it's essence (obviously excluding Moon, Sun and Saturn).

As it's the Moon's aspect which matters here, I'd say we have two choices, the first is to take the Moon's movement as an indicator of the situation (which seems to me it's best use) or your unconscious desires i.e. you're not willing to accept a solution which does not resolve the issue of his existing marriage. In fact both MIGHT be the same, in that the Moon is separating form the Mars Venus conjunction - symbolic of lovers and moving to the square of Saturn, your partner, separated by choice. It symbolises the change in your relationship. That change may well be temporary - a description of what's happening and the tension involved. The Sun,Saturn trine still would be the effective outcome.

On the timing again it's important to stress the need to talk over things between Astrologer and client, or as in the case of doing your own horary, having a clear view of what the time units are. Clearly with this voluntary separation you were not expecting the issues to be resolved in days. So I guess that days can't be the short term measure. That leaves, weeks as short, Months as medium and possibly years as long term (though we might take quarters).

Rather than too much analysis, it might be better to take the following line. The chart shows that theQupte relationship will resume with Mr Right. There might be some problems on the way. Two more horaries might help here.

Will your partner be able to resolve the issue with his estranged wife to your satisfaction in the next (however long you think is reasonable) months.

Will your partner's organisation send him on some secondment before August.

That might well clarify matters. Though I'll revisit my version of the chart to see if it could offer someway of answering these.

Fudugazi said:
I take it you're not looking for Mr or Ms Right? - I love such synchronicities.

LOL No, it was a horary on my wife's recovery.

Maggiemay

Thank you so much for posting your horary chart, Fudugazi. It was VERY fascinating to read.

Maggie

Minderwiz said:
LOL No, it was a horary on my wife's recovery.

I am sorry to hear this. I send you both truckloads of positive energy.

Maggie

Sophie

Thanks again, Minderwiz - this is a tutorial all in one. You are an excellent teacher! I need to sleep on all this and revisit it in the morning. I also send my very best wishes to your wife, and to you for supporting her.

Interesting what you say about the medical-humanitarian organisation. It's actually a branch of the UN, but it has a specific purpose and subject-matter, which it approaches in a medical, social, educational and humanitarian manner. I don't suppose traditional astrologers thought about such things when they were devising their house contents! If you subscribe to some of the current UN conspiracy theories, then the 12th might be all the more appropriate

Incidentally - yes, you are right, the Moon rules the 12th, not the 9th - I got my knickers in a twist. Chart interpretation - and horary most of all - still feels a lot like lace-making to me.

Minderwiz said:
As it's the Moon's aspect which matters here, I'd say we have two choices, the first is to take the Moon's movement as an indicator of the situation (which seems to me it's best use) or your unconscious desires i.e. you're not willing to accept a solution which does not resolve the issue of his existing marriage. In fact both MIGHT be the same, in that the Moon is separating form the Mars Venus conjunction - symbolic of lovers and moving to the square of Saturn, your partner, separated by choice. It symbolises the change in your relationship. That change may well be temporary - a description of what's happening and the tension involved. The Sun,Saturn trine still would be the effective outcome.

Ok, that works for me as a dynamic symbolic account. Especially in view of the "emotional" cyclical nature of the Moon - which tallies with my own emotional cyclical nature.

As for the Moon being his organisation - to be honest, if the main issue were resolved in his life and between us, neither of us would let an organisation come between us, even if we do have to wait until August, or longer. We've both, at various times, travelled thousands of miles to be together.

Regarding other horaries - I did one a few days ago about him resolving his issues, and it showed that for him, things would get worse before getting better - but it indicated that indeed they would be resolved: his significator, again Saturn Rx, in the 8th house - opposed his wife's, a swift moon, in the 2nd - an applying opposition 6 degrees apart; the Venus/Mars conjunction in the 3rs squared the Ascendant - applying square within 2 degrees. The Moon has no other aspects, and his significator has a separating trine to Mercury in the 4th, suggesting he's been able to talk about home matters successfully. Jupiter, which rules the 12th, sits in the 2nd and squares Mercury in the 4th - an applying square 2 degrees from partill - does that mean growing secrets or hidden motives about money and house matters? Not unknown when long-term spouses separate. I double checked with his solar return chart, and it was just as clear.

I am wary of pursuing that line further - apart from anything, I don't want to pry further than what I need to know and what will help me help him, and I saw enough to be worried for his health and well-being as it is. I don't expect our relationship to be magically restored to pristine condition, even when he does succeed in clearing the past. Some wounds take time to heal. Mine too...

Re: timing units - I often think in terms of seasons and half-seasons (e.g. in the Celtic calendar there are 8 seasons in a year). Assuming that view of time was current back when astrology was in its heyday, I suppose it's ok to adopt those as units as well? It might also be possible to divide months into 3 phases of 10 days each, which is an alternative measure.

Hi Maggie! **waves** - I can't think of a better way to learn.

But maybe I should think of asking where my fish is :laugh:

Minderwiz

Maggie and Fudugazi,

Thanks for your good wishes. My wife had major heart surgery in January and then complications during the recovery, which necessitated a further operation in early March. Since then she's been back in hospital for a blood transfusion but is now on the mend. Indeed she's now been at home longer than any period this year.

The charts were an event chart based on the timing for her latest blood test and a subsequent horary relating to her recovery time.

Maggiemay

Fudugazi said:
But maybe I should think of asking where my fish is

If only your 'fish' was your only care in the world as opposed to this trying situation... ( but you got to admit it would have made for a boring horary!)

Maggie

Minderwiz said:
My wife had major heart surgery in January and then complications during the recovery, which necessitated a further operation in early March. Since then she's been back in hospital for a blood transfusion but is now on the mend. Indeed she's now been at home longer than any period this year.

Ohhh... Minderwiz....

Maggie

Minderwiz

Maggiemay said:
If only your 'fish' was your only care in the world as opposed to this trying situation... ( but you got to admit it would have made for a boring horary!)

Maggie

Well if you read William Lilly's horary on that very subject you'll find an excellent detective story, which resulted in the arrest of the culprit

Ohhh... Minderwiz....

Maggie

Yes it's been a tough time but she's better now than anytime this year and seems to be making steady progress. It's going to be a few months before she's fully fit because she lost 20 pounds in weight during the process.

We're off for a weekend break in less than a fortnight so a bit of sea air and hopefully a little Sun will do her the world of good.

Maggiemay

Minderwiz said:
Well if you read William Lilly's horary on that very subject you'll find an excellent detective story, which resulted in the arrest of the culprit

So cool!

Minderwiz said:
We're off for a weekend break in less than a fortnight so a bit of sea air and hopefully a little Sun will do her the world of good.

Take me with you! Take me with you! LOL

Maggie (on how to ruin the perfect weekend getaway!)

Sophie

Minderwiz said:
Well if you read William Lilly's horary on that very subject you'll find an excellent detective story, which resulted in the arrest of the culprit

Maggie, you can read it here.

Minderwiz, I hope your wife recovers fully! She might want to try Reiki, it is very good for all post-operative conditions, helps the whole healing process. As will the week-end getaway

Horary charts : how to figure out answers and their TIME FRAME?

Sophie

Sophie

Minderwiz

Maggiemay

Sophie

Minderwiz

Maggiemay

Minderwiz

Maggiemay

Sophie