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Grail Mystery Rediscovered in Tarot

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Quote:
On making these reasonable modifications, the Tarot suits are actually the Graal Hallows."
Well here is the crux of the matter I guess for me. I am not disputing the Waite believed that and then went to influence Pamela C- S. with his thoughts and writings. I do not believe that myself. It is like my attempt to associate Tarot with the Phoenician alphabet symbols- you have to make 'reasonable modifications' to make it fit. I feel the same way about the Kabalah and Tarot- but I accept totally that many see the very clear connection.
I read somewhere that attempting to associate the suits of Tarot to the Graal Hallows was 'frivolous'.
I am interested however in what actually happened and how thoughts were translated into the images that is now part of Tarot History.
~Rosanne
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosanne
Well here is the crux of the matter I guess for me. I am not disputing the Waite believed that and then went to influence Pamela C- S. with his thoughts and writings. I do not believe that myself. It is like my attempt to associate Tarot with the Phoenician alphabet symbols- you have to make 'reasonable modifications' to make it fit.
Rosanne, I agree with you completely. I don't agree with Waite that the Hallows and the Tarot Talismans are "the same." However, I like the idea of their being archetypally related, matching Jung's idea of the elemental nature of the quaternity (elemental meaning "constituting the basic idea of wholeness as experienced on the earth plane"). But, that's what I "like," not necessarily what's real historically.

However, my interest in this topic is not about the world's historical truth, rather it's about what Waite (& Smith) intended for and subtly (or not so subtly) put into the RWS tarot deck.

I propose that vitally important clues to Waite's intention, that have been overlooked, lie in the Grail book(s). I think that this subtle, yet deep, intention is part of the reason why the deck has had such a powerful, lasting influence. It is archetypally sound and echoes the threads of the great mysteries that are part of what Waite calls "The Secret Tradition."
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firemaiden
I know I have a book somewhere by Jean-Michel Mathonière on the subject : Graal et Tarot - I'll have another look for it.
Firemaiden: Great! I hope you can find it and report to us on what it says.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teheuti
I propose that vitally important clues to Waite's intention, that have been overlooked, lie in the Grail book(s). I think that this subtle, yet deep, intention is part of the reason why the deck has had such a powerful, lasting influence. It is archetypally sound and echoes the threads of the great mysteries that are part of what Waite calls "The Secret Tradition."
I will read with interest what you have to say- as I always do. The deck itself remains the foundation of my interest in Tarot. I do not have to believe in the original premise- but the ideas that came from that are very interesting to me.
I do not believe in the migration story of the New Zealand Maori as was taught to me as historical fact- but the obvious migration is fascinating as is how they came to such a incorrect theory. It is part of the History of New Zealand now.
Just felt I had to explain how I viewed it.
~Rosanne
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Here's another tidbit from Waite that says alot:

"It is not manifestly impossible that a cryptic literature like Alchemy, which has proclaimed from the beginning that its use of specific terms is not to be taken literally, may be concerned with a very different object from its supposed transmutation of metals. It is not impossible that some persons who adopted its terminology may have used it on their own part in a sense which differed from others, so that there may have been two schools of practitioners." The Holy Grail (1933), p. 408.

If this applies equally to the Tarot Minors (which Waite calls 'Talismans' and equates with a 'School of Symbolism') then we can surely imagine Waite saying exoterically that the deck is simply for divination and fortune-telling, while he is personally aware of a deeper significance, a second 'school of practitioners.'

With the Minors focusing on the story of Loss (with moments of grace & happiness), we have something similar to the Buddhist idea of life as suffering or unsatisfactoriness. It is to the Majors, then, that one must turn for the path to Attainment.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teheuti
It is not impossible that some persons who adopted its terminology may have used it on their own part in a sense which differed from others, so that there may have been two schools of practitioners." The Holy Grail (1933), p. 408.
Does he mean Theosophical alchemists (like Rosicrucians) and metallurgists/chemists? Or does he mean diviners/fortune tellers and theosophical alchemists?

Quote:
If this applies equally to the Tarot Minors (which Waite calls 'Talismans' and equates with a 'School of Symbolism') then we can surely imagine Waite saying exoterically that the deck is simply for divination and fortune-telling, while he is personally aware of a deeper significance, a second 'school of practitioners.'
So he is saying that if he is the architect of the Talismans/minors in some part- the images will conceal the truth? If this is so, why is he designing in part the Talismans/Minors? For us dumb bunnies who will never see the truth?
Or when he writes is he trying to say nothing?- you know that old chestnut "Obscure idioms"?
Feeling a little annoyed with him as usual.
~Rosanne
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Grail Mystery


Certainly Waite-Smith's 6 of cups is no minor matter, with all its symbolism, including lance and cup.
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Neville Meakin (EOL) & Robert William Felkin (FR) were evidently members of a certain Order of the Graal, that Waite (SR=Sacramentum Regis) may have been affiliated with circa 1912 (see page 42):

"Order of Graal: EOL 40th Grand Master, his father was 39th. Dates from King
Arthur, had suspension of some 300 years down to days of EOL's grandfather. Three chief grades: Page, Novice, knight. Also many subsidiary grades. Much occult material but FR says there is nothing special concerning Graal. 3 Magi and during EOL's lifetime, FR was made Senior Magus. (FR had earlier told SR that he was far beyond EOL - but how could this be with EOL as Grand M. ?) No strangers to join unless there are 3 Knights in one Family (as when FR joined - being EOL, his father and his half-brother). Since EOLs death Order is in hands of FR. Thus FR is 41st GM but
he doesn't wish to be; in which case GM will be a relative of EOL's in Scotland. Had EOL lived he would have made Denis Felkin a page, also would have knighted his Scottish relative, whose name FR wouldn't give to SR. Still wants SR to be the Second Magus. Complicated and difficult rits. In Knighthood grade 3 (or 5 or 7 ?) archangels clothe the candidate. (SR sceptical about whole thing -RG)
http://74.125.45.104/search?q=cache:...ient=firefox-a

"The theory that all esoteric practices and traditions, whether alchemy, the Hebrew Kabbalah, the legends of the Holy Grail, Rosicrucianism, Christian mysticism or Freemasonry, were secret paths to a direct experience of God had been developed by Waite over many years. He was convinced that the symbolism in each of these traditions had a common root and a common end, and that their correct interpretation would lead to a revelation of concealed ways to spiritual illumination. "
-R. A. Gilbert: The masonic career of A.E. Waite
http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/aqc/waite/waite.html

"The aim of Waite’s Secret Council of Rites was the ‘stimulation and nourishment of Mystic Aspiration, more especially in Freemasonry, towards the Great Work of Reintegration with the Centre, or Union with the Divine as the Supreme End of all research’, and even though his Council was supposedly secret, Waite ensured that it would avoid any masonic censure by deliberately excluding ‘any identification with social or political movements’. There were eleven specified ‘Rectified Occult Orders and Masonic Rites’, each of which was assigned to one of the Sephiroth (including Daath) on the Tree of Life. First among them was ‘The Independent and Rectified Rite of Martinism’, which was ‘referred to Malkuth’, and which was designed to ‘act as a drag net for all the Rites, but especially for those of the Central Pillar’."
http://74.125.45.104/search?q=cache:...ient=firefox-a

This reminds me of a stimulating discussion many years ago on TarotL where it was suggested that Waite intended the trumps to occupy the sephiroth in an ascending and descending pattern...

-John
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosanne
Does he mean Theosophical alchemists (like Rosicrucians) and metallurgists/chemists? Or does he mean diviners/fortune tellers and theosophical alchemists?
I take it as his meaning spiritual alchemists versus physical alchemists (early chemists/physicists).

Quote:
So he is saying that if he is the architect of the Talismans/minors in some part- the images will conceal the truth? If this is so, why is he designing in part the Talismans/Minors? For us dumb bunnies who will never see the truth?
Or when he writes is he trying to say nothing?- you know that old chestnut "Obscure idioms"?
I think he means that there is often both a practical and a spiritual level to occult works. While some people may use alchemy to transform lead into gold, others use it to transform themselves.

I think the sentiment could also apply to tarot. This quote comes from the "Ritual Hypothesis" section which was an expansion of the 2nd part of his chapter on Tarot & the Grail Hallows.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Hall
Certainly Waite-Smith's 6 of cups is no minor matter, with all its symbolism, including lance and cup.
Could you speak more about what you see in it?
Top   #40




 


 


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