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Quote:
Originally Posted by closrapexa View Post
...but seems to me that if we go simply by logic, Aleph should be very properly One, both because of its value and because of its position at the beginning.
But that logic breaks down after 10 anyway - a number based correlation is alway going to be makeshift - the logic of making fool 21 (or 300) or 22 (or 400) is no more or less logical than it being one. I prefer to make the correlation on the symbolism of the letters and the tradition of alef being an exception among the letters (being that from which all the other letters emerge) and the fool being the exception (the fool and 21 trumps). For example in the myth of the letters being first 'in creation' or in the torah, Alef remains silent before G-d (the letters being addressed backwards from Tau to Alef and stopping at Beith 'the first in creation'). According to Cordovero Alef is the letter from which the others emerge, and the rest are split into 3 groups of 7 (similar to how the Fool is an exception and the 21 trumps are frequently seen as being split into 3 groups of seven). According to Cordevero the first 7 seven letters (starting from Beith) belong to the rule of grace, the second group of 7 to the rule of love and the last 7 to the rule of judgment.
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Has anyone seen this set of Tarot correspondences? The author has come up with a completely new set of attributions. It did go slightly over my head but it looked interesting.

http://www.psyche.com/psyche/tarot/R...rot/index.html
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Originally Posted by DeToX View Post
Has anyone seen this set of Tarot correspondences? The author has come up with a completely new set of attributions. It did go slightly over my head but it looked interesting.

http://www.psyche.com/psyche/tarot/R...rot/index.html
Thanks for the reference, DeToX! I wonder who wrote it? It seems to be a presentation of the work of Carlo Suares(1892-1976), but obviously Suares did not post the material. I would dearly like to ask some questions about those correspondences. For instance, take the assignment of Water (Mem) to the Hanged Man. The text says "Once the Tower and High Priestess are restored to their correct Hebrew letter formatives (Dallet and Tav), the symbols line up as neatly as in the column of twos: falling/suspended figures, towers, scaffolds, crosses and pillars."

Well excuse me, but they don't. Why ignore the pillars of the Moon card, present in the TdM, yet include the pillars on the RWS High Priestess, which are not?

And yes you can see an inverted triangle in the RWS Hanged Man, but it is not visible in the TdM. I can understand it when an assignment is more or less forced because other options are already closed, but the claim seems to be that Water/Mem obviously has to be the Hanged Man.

Even if you assume that Pamela Colman Smith had a deeper knowledge of Tarot than Arthur E. Waite and the depictions are to be trusted when they differ from the Golden Dawn attributions or the Tarot de Marseille, I still would have questions. Like why the Fool symbolizes the Uncreated, while the World is after creation. If the Fool card depicts him prior to creation, where did the dog, sun and flower come from? Whereas you can look at the 4 corner figures in the World card as maybe referring to God (or the Tetragrammaton or something) and the dancing lady as an idea in the mind of God. In other words, it seems more likely, based on the imagery, that the World is uncreated and the Fool created than the other way around.

Anyway, I wish I could ask someone knowledgeable about this system to defend the reasoning behind the attributions.
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Interesting points. There is no contact page or email on the web site so obviously the owner/author doesn't want to be contacted too much. However ;-) doing a quick whois shows it is published by 'interdimensional productions' and the guy's email address is brian@qbl.com.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheiromancer View Post
Even if you assume that Pamela Colman Smith had a deeper knowledge of Tarot than Arthur E. Waite and the depictions are to be trusted when they differ from the Golden Dawn attributions or the Tarot de Marseille, I still would have questions. Like why the Fool symbolizes the Uncreated, while the World is after creation. If the Fool card depicts him prior to creation, where did the dog, sun and flower come from? Whereas you can look at the 4 corner figures in the World card as maybe referring to God (or the Tetragrammaton or something) and the dancing lady as an idea in the mind of God. In other words, it seems more likely, based on the imagery, that the World is uncreated and the Fool created than the other way around.

Anyway, I wish I could ask someone knowledgeable about this system to defend the reasoning behind the attributions.
That would be a dangerous assumption to make. While Smith was a member of the Golden Dawn, she wasn't very high up, and probably didn't see it as her vocation as Waite did. Besides, Waite's body of work and Smith's lack of it, speak for themselves. The whole fairy tale that Waite wasn't involved is a purely political argument made by feminists, and is easily refuted simply by looking at the deck and a cursory knowledge of Waite's works.

As to the Fool vs. The World, I don't know if such correlations could be made. A Tarot card has a limited space to explain a certain idea. There is no dog on the card, merely the idea of it, just as on the Thoth there is no crocodile, but Mako the creator, in crocodile form. If we took Tarot too literally, the Fool would be merely a blank card. Even the GD color scales depict colors that, strictly speaking, don't exist, and the scales are merely aproximations of them.

In addition, I have a theory that the RWS is all facing the wrong way, depicting the Adam Kadmon, while we the users are looking out.

http://tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=203499

While would have little bearing on the ordering, it would still show the danger of looking too literally at Tarot images, as every creator does what they want.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by closrapexa View Post
That would be a dangerous assumption to make. While Smith was a member of the Golden Dawn, she wasn't very high up, and probably didn't see it as her vocation as Waite did. Besides, Waite's body of work and Smith's lack of it, speak for themselves. The whole fairy tale that Waite wasn't involved is a purely political argument made by feminists, and is easily refuted simply by looking at the deck and a cursory knowledge of Waite's works.
Oh, I am not seriously entertaining that assumption. But I had just finished asking why Suares took the RWS symbolism as definitive over the TdM (e.g. the pillars in the priestess card, the Tau cross of the Hanged Man). I am pretending, for the sake of argument, that it was somehow shown that Smith's artistic vision was utterly authoritative. Even if you grant this point (and I wouldn't, without some pretty convincing evidence), there are still questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by closrapexa View Post
As to the Fool vs. The World, I don't know if such correlations could be made. A Tarot card has a limited space to explain a certain idea. There is no dog on the card, merely the idea of it, just as on the Thoth there is no crocodile, but Mako the creator, in crocodile form. If we took Tarot too literally, the Fool would be merely a blank card. Even the GD color scales depict colors that, strictly speaking, don't exist, and the scales are merely aproximations of them.
I wouldn't make that correlation either. I just think it is more probable, given the iconography, than the reverse. I am unfamiliar with Mako - does s/he often take crocodile form? Even though God spelled backward is dog, it would be very odd if the dog were Smith's way of depicting the creator of the universe. And why bother depicting the sun? If think if you wished to portray the fall of Sophia your image would likely look more like the World than the Fool.

Re: Adam Kadmon. I've read that, given the way Boaz and Jachin are depicted on the High Priestess card, the viewer would have to be inside the temple looking out. Maybe the temple was put together backwards? That thread looks interesting - I'll have to go puzzle it out later.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheiromancer View Post
Re: Adam Kadmon. I've read that, given the way Boaz and Jachin are depicted on the High Priestess card, the viewer would have to be inside the temple looking out. Maybe the temple was put together backwards? That thread looks interesting - I'll have to go puzzle it out later.
Sorry, I'm having one of those days in which I'm literal and devoid of humor. (:

Anyway, I don't remember the thread name, do a search for "holy of holies" with the Priestess, there was a discussion about where she was facing. As the path of Gimel (on the GD Tree) I believe she is not the keeper of the mysteries, she is the mysteries; the Chariot gives her the aspect of the vessel while the Hierophant the Logos, symbolically the Torah. To "commune" with her is to open the Ark of the Covenant and achieve Keter.

LRichard demonstrated in that thread that the layout of the Priestess is a Masonic temple.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheiromancer View Post
I wouldn't make that correlation either. I just think it is more probable, given the iconography, than the reverse. I am unfamiliar with Mako - does s/he often take crocodile form? Even though God spelled backward is dog, it would be very odd if the dog were Smith's way of depicting the creator of the universe. And why bother depicting the sun? If think if you wished to portray the fall of Sophia your image would likely look more like the World than the Fool.
Check the Book of Thoth entry on the Fool, it explains Mako and Sobek far better than I could, and to my mind explains the Fool's relationship with Death. It is, however, Thoth-specific; earlier depictions of either the crocodile or the dog might not have the same intent. The dog could be Sirius, the dog-star, and here again I can't explain why without going all Thothy, as I am quite sleepy. In a nutshell, though, there is the relationship between the infinitely contracted and the infinitely expanded, depending on one's attribution of the Star.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sepher Yetzirah
"Three matrices: Alef, Mem, Shin - a great secret, hidden and ineffable, and sealed with six seals. And from it goes out fire, water and aether, and it is enveloped in male and female. Know and ponder a form (a mental image) that fire evaporates water." -SY24

“Three matrices: Alef, Mem, Shin - The offspring of the heavens - fire; the offspring of the air - aether; the offspring of earth - water; fire above, water below, and aether is the balancing item.” - SY25

http://www.scribd.com/doc/3206349/sefer-yetzira
▽ + △ = ✡
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-2l72bVZXid...00/Ripples.jpg
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Originally Posted by Yygdrasilian View Post
Why do you post these things without any explanation? A random picture does no more to advance the conversation than if you posted a picture of a kitten.
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