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Etteilla & Kabbalah

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0 is the first number in the sequence of non-negative integers. To place it anywhere else in the sequence is wacky unless one is using modular arithmetic. Yes, 22 = 0 modulo 22, but although modular arithmetic is used in occultism, it is usually of the mod 9 variety which utilizes the Arabic positional system. Example: 14 = 5, which is true modulo 9 since the remainder upon division of 14 by 9 is 5. The same reduction mod 9 can be done by (successive) subtraction of the number 9.

It were better for the Fool to be numberless if it be placed in position 22. Perhaps Roman numerals have a valid use in Tarot after all, in spite of the objections of the mod 9 numerologists.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GnosticTarotCards View Post
Wow Kwaw!

That was phenomenal , we are now discussing a few words...
As I said, thanks for the correction. It was not my intention in correcting the translation from 'in the order of cards' to 'in the game' to make an issue of a few words - although as you say, such can make a difference - 'count alone' in the specific context for example has arguably different connotations to your 'stand alone'. My point which you ignored was not these few words, but that Gebelin chose to discuss the allegorical sequence with the fool before the cards 'I to XXI' in ascending order, and Mellet after the cards 'XXI to I' in descending order. Further, the view that the fool is seen by Gebelin and Mellet in this position (with the Juggler) is strengthened when Gebelin begins to discuss the trump cards in ascending order (I to XXI), he links the fool with the juggler with the phrase 'between the fool and the juggler man is not well'; and that Mellet's placement of the fool in this position is apparent by his attribution of the cards with the Hebrew letters (alef with the world, running in descending order to tau with the fool). So your opinion that the fool was never viewed in such a position prior to the English (GD) school is at the least debatable.

Quote:

I do have a historical question, not related to the fool but developing influences on Etteilla's "crazy" thoughts that many others seemed to validate

Why did the Europeans take such profound changes to playing cards once seeing the Mamluk pack, first by adding in a set of Queens, and then by creating a set of 22 extra cards. That seems intentional to me. Im not a historian so maybe you can shed light on that, if so then it might explain why his trumps are make-overs of the original sequence, and even though he puts them in a new order, he absolutely doesn't sever the connection to the original set. His Italian students made a deck in the decade after he died that put his illustrations back in Marseilles, called the Cartomanzia Italiana.

Maybe start there and end there for me. Mamluk, insertion of queens and Etteilla's insistance on the original sequence, but made over.
Re: Etteilla, I suggest you familiarize yourself with the great work MikeH has done in translating Etteilla's works in threads in other sections of this forum and with the Etteilla timeline he and others have worked on developing (and rid yourself of your idol Dr. Keizer's apparent idea/implication that other people's differing concepts and opinions arise from a position of ignorance - not an ideal standpoint for mutual rapport or learning - also of any idea that any 'idol' or authority is beyond questioning or fact checking (what 'audacity'! - Try it, you might unlearn something)).

Quote:
Originally Posted by kwaw View Post
I don't think one needs to rely too much on hypothetical secret documents - although obviously from the example of the enormous amount of material from the GD there was private teachings going on in the esoteric schools - but on a purely exoteric level one can trace from what was published that Etteilla lifted from Gebelin/Mellet and added his own postulations, Levi from all three, then Christian, Papus etc., with numerous hack writers plagiarizing 'em to boot - much of the similarity in material, phrases etc., does not rely for an explanations on authors copying from an unknown source, but from each other.
Although from the example of GD material we can also say there was not much (if any) underground secret teachings going on - more a clever and monumental synthesis of readily available* material - a literary rather than underground stream.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kwaw View Post
At least Mellets attributions have the virtue of not attempting or implying any such correlation.
Another neat thing about his attributions is that they sort of match up with the rules of descending and ascending ranks among the minors - must say I quite like that!

Kwaw

*By 'readily available' I mean of course to anyone who could also speak at least French and Latin as well as English, and preferably German and a little Hebrew too; had access to the British Museum and Bibliotec Francais and the private means or sponsorship to spend most of their waking hours there for a significant number of years... (I thank thee O Creators of the Web, Google Search, Google Books and - for all its faults - Google Translate!)
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Quite appropriate, since in a wheel 0 can come between either. Its imperative that to "unlearn" some things we be willing to "learn" others. If unlearning is based upon being "unwilling" then its not verification we are struggling with or history, its obstinacy! in this subject, I’d really not like to commence further. history of the tarot is dry, boring and not really that productive for me. Notice I stated MY opinion and not blanket statement for (whoever would like to get into a word mongering obstinacy) everyone. I'd much rather have you all fight amongst yourselves about the history and who said what. This is not only counterproductive to me , but as we can see in any historical study full of postulates that are only valid when considering related authors.

My intention isn't to create a bunch of confusing references and bread crumb trails. For me Continental Tarot is more than an adequate tradition to stand behind. How we got here? Well you figure that out. Perhaps when we are able to read Etteilla from his mindset we will see like Papus , that he was extremely delusional and shortsighted but also incredibly gifted. Don't know. Of course to someone that prefers the "most available" golden dawn tradition, of course Papus is like a "enemy of the state" . Im not concerned with Papus, Levi, Wirth , Sadhu being figures that need to be "strained like gnats", that is time consuming and counterproductive to me. Another quick reference to tarot would be Louis Claude de Saint Martin, but of course that is not palatable here.

C'est la vie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwaw View Post
Another neat thing about his (Mellet's) attributions is that they sort of match up with the rules of descending and ascending ranks among the minors - must say I quite like that!
I have added Mellet's attributions (currently the oldest attritutions known between the hebrew alphabet and trumps) to my ascending/descending pips table - together with the truly oldest extent Sefer Yetzirah hebrew alphabet attributions.

See pdf attachment (corrections, amendments, suggestions welcomed) :
Attached Images
File Type: pdf MelletTarotTrumpPips.pdf (308.1 KB, 110 views)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GnosticTarotCards View Post
...This is not only counterproductive to me , but as we can see in any historical study full of postulates that are only valid when considering related authors.

My intention isn't to create a bunch of confusing references and bread crumb trails. For me Continental Tarot is more than an adequate tradition to stand behind. How we got here? Well you figure that out. Perhaps when we are able to read Etteilla from his mindset we will see like Papus , that he was extremely delusional and shortsighted but also incredibly gifted. Don't know. Of course to someone that prefers the "most available" golden dawn tradition, of course Papus is like a "enemy of the state" . Im not concerned with Papus, Levi, Wirth , Sadhu being figures that need to be "strained like gnats", that is time consuming and counterproductive to me. Another quick reference to tarot would be Louis Claude de Saint Martin, but of course that is not palatable here.

C'est la vie
Studied 'em all GTC, in French and English (where available - much of it is). As I mentioned previously, several people expressed an interest in a Study Group for Christine's deck of cards - if some members are still interested why not take a lead on that (as a student of hers you are in a good position to do so) - it may be a more productive way to involve people in a study of a continental system...(presuming that is something you would like to do) ?

Just a suggestion,

Kwaw

ps: I've never been involved with the study groups so don't know much about how they run, but if you're interested a place to start might be here:

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=32949
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God, it sucks to have to curb what needs to be said.. Oh well im outta this thread
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ross G Caldwell View Post
The chart at the back of Wirth's Le Tarot des imagiers du Moyen Age (the French edition; I can't find it in the most recent Weiser reprint) begins with Etteilla's correspondences, which match Christine's except that it omits the three elements (those spaces are simply left blank in Wirth's list).
Don't want to talk here!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GnosticTarotCards View Post
Im not sure what the "goal" in this thread is.[/i]
The original question basically boils down to: Where does Christine (or Papus/Wirth) get 'Etteilla's own attributions from?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GnosticTarotCards View Post
Is it to invalidate the European orders of Tarot?
Unlike yourself, I have no desire to invalidate any particular schools orders of Tarot* - merely to understand a little of their basis and origins (and if and when I choose to record them, to do so accurately).

Quote:
As for your original question I will try to answer it. Christine gives Etteilla's own attributions to the AAN as Marseilles Trumps that he made over

"his trumps are make-overs of the original sequence, and even though he puts them in a new order, he absolutely doesn't sever the connection to the original set"
Erm, well - it doesn't answer it, just makes the same apparently unfounded assertion. I have not been able to find anything in Etteilla to reflect that AAN order (even when converted back to TdM ordering) - if it is there I would have liked to have known. I shall presume as no such source is forthcoming, Christine is basing it on Papus's postulations (which I believe, but may be wrong, is also the source for the Wirth chart).

Never mind. Thanks anyway.

Kwaw
* see my post (#20) above.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwaw View Post
I have no desire to invalidate any particular schools orders of Tarot* - merely to understand a little of their basis and origins (and if and when I choose to record them, to do so accurately).
I'm like you, I only want to accurately study the history. My imagination can do anything beyond this, I don't need any help.

Thanks for the beautiful and elegant chart btw. Very nice! I wonder how Levi and the GD's teachings about the Tarot would be different with the Comte de Mellet's Hebrew attributions added to the old SY - like the Popess/Priestess as Resh and Mercury! The Fool as Moon makes immediate sense; we can take the "mark" of Tau as the sign of Cain, the wanderer, but also as the pilgrim with the sacred T mark, to begin with: his stick crossing his neck makes the t apparent. Tau is the lowest path, the dog barks at the Moon, urging him on to Yesod... (see, my imagination is fine...)

And also, how creative the occultists might have been (and might still be able to be) if they recognized the traditional inversion of the ranking of the pips in Cups and Deniers.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ross G Caldwell View Post

Thanks for the beautiful and elegant chart btw. Very nice! I wonder how Levi and the GD's teachings about the Tarot would be different with the Comte de Mellet's Hebrew attributions added to the old SY - like the Popess/Priestess as Resh and Mercury! The Fool as Moon makes immediate sense; we can take the "mark" of Tau as the sign of Cain, the wanderer, but also as the pilgrim with the sacred T mark, to begin with: his stick crossing his neck makes the t apparent. Tau is the lowest path, the dog barks at the Moon, urging him on to Yesod... (see, my imagination is fine...)
Thanks Ross, though so very different from either any French or English school, the symbolism is so multivalent I'm sure with a little imagination and lots of free association the rest could be made to fit too (the association with Mercury immediately brings the Popesse's book into focus for example).

Quote:
And also, how creative the occultists might have been (and might still be able to be) if they recognized the traditional inversion of the ranking of the pips in Cups and Deniers.
Yes, lots of room for creativity there - maybe I should have kept that part to myself and set up my own mystery school with its own secret, true and ancient attributions of the illumini Could do with some dosh! There again if I recall aright Crowley's interests in such lost him his fortune, rather than added to it (though drugs, prostitutes, self-publishing, world travel and mountain climbing expeditions probably took their toll on it too).
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