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RohanMenon  RohanMenon is offline
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Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
He sun is setting, so the Lot looks a better bet at this stage wulfd be the Lot, assuming that ends up the system you favour.
Thanks, This is a great help. But this means that the Lord of the Lot is Mars, the out of sect malefic, who is angular in the 10th. Interesting times ahead.

Quote:
As you will see there's a lot of different systems at this time. It's very rich in methods but not as consistent as in thé later period.
This is good too since I can filter these methods by running them against known horoscopes and see which work and which don't.
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RohanMenon  RohanMenon is offline
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A confusing section


27: Propitious and Impropitious Periods, the Length of Life calculated from the Angles, and signs following the Angles.

This section seems to promise a method to calculate the length of life, but there isn't enough detail in the section to *actually do the calculation*, or a worked example from which this can be reverse engineered. Not providing examples is very unlike Valens. In every preceeding and succeeding section, there are example horoscopes. So maybe this section is an interpolation too?

some fragments I understood,

01. Use rising times of each sign (What is this? How to determine this?) and the cyclical period of each star to determine the periods of good and bad ffortune

02: When calculating length of life pay attention to the signs of Moon and Ascendant, and signs where their rulers are located.

03: The stars which are at the ascendant begin to rule over the first period of life (ok good. But how long is this period?).The planets at MC, DESC, IC (in that order?) rule over the subsequent periods (again how long is each period? does this come later in the book?)

etc etc. The main idea here seems to be to rank all the planets in order of prominence (so planets in ascendant come first for e.g). Somehow rising times of signs are also mixed into this ordering.

Still there is no clear algorithm that can be applied to a given horoscope

Very frustrating. Still, in the end I doubt I'll use any scheme other than Zodiacal Releasing, so it is ok that some schemes are unclear.

Onwards.
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Minderwiz  Minderwiz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RohanMenon View Post
27: Propitious and Impropitious Periods, the Length of Life calculated from the Angles, and signs following the Angles.

This section seems to promise a method to calculate the length of life, but there isn't enough detail in the section to *actually do the calculation*, or a worked example from which this can be reverse engineered. Not providing examples is very unlike Valens. In every preceeding and succeeding section, there are example horoscopes. So maybe this section is an interpolation too?
Or the result of bad editing later on. Valens wrote on papyrii scrolls and these would need to be read in order. It might also be that Valens broke off his 'current' theme to write on another because he had something he wanted to write down (maybe a new method he'd heard of). Later on the scrolls were taken in the order they were found but not necessarily in the order he intended. That's the 'joy' of trying to make sense of an ancient writer.

Later on in Books III and IV he begins to look at those length of life calculations and other forecasting methods in more detail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RohanMenon
some fragments I understood,

01. Use rising times of each sign (What is this? How to determine this?) and the cyclical period of each star to determine the periods of good and bad fortune
The rising times, or ascensions are the times taken for a sign to rise over the horizon at a particular location. They vary with latitude. I'm sure you're aware that quadrant house systems break down at the polar regions; this is because some signs will never rise, or others never set at a particular time of year. The rising times used would be those applicable at the time of birth. (If you want your own rising times, I can give them to you but they would be tropical, rather than sidereal).

Valens will have a list of rising times for each Clima (Klima) or latitude. From memory, I think these stretched as far north as the province of Britannia and as far south as India (or at least those areas that were on trade routes)

The cyclical periods of the stars were established cycles covering a number of years. These fell into three categories for each planet. A greater cycle, a mean cycle and a lesser cycle. The lesser number of years, was the one most used and features in Zodiacal Releasing.

Saturn = 30 years - every 30 years there are 29 conjunctions of the Sun and Saturn (and 29 years is the Saturn return)

Jupiter = 12 years - there are 11 conjunctions with the Sun every 12 years

Mars = 15 years - there are 7 conjunctions with the Sun every 15 years

Sun = 19 years - there are 19 years in the Metonic cycle

Venus = 8 years - There are 5 Venus conjunctions with the Sun, taking retrograde and direct conjunctions separately. Traced out they form a five pointed star.

Mercury = 20 years - In 20 years there are 63 conjunctions with the Sun.

Moon = 25 years (309 New Moons in that period)


Quote:
Originally Posted by RohanMenon

02: When calculating length of life pay attention to the signs of Moon and Ascendant, and signs where their rulers are located.

03: The stars which are at the ascendant begin to rule over the first period of life (ok good. But how long is this period?).The planets at MC, DESC, IC (in that order?) rule over the subsequent periods (again how long is each period? does this come later in the book?)
Yes, the ranking is ASC, then MC, then the opposition to the ASC (the DSC) and then the opposition to the MC (IC) This ranking is standard and Lilly uses it.

The periods of rule are likely to be as above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RohanMenon
etc etc. The main idea here seems to be to rank all the planets in order of prominence (so planets in ascendant come first for e.g). Somehow rising times of signs are also mixed into this ordering.

Still there is no clear algorithm that can be applied to a given horoscope

Very frustrating. Still, in the end I doubt I'll use any scheme other than Zodiacal Releasing, so it is ok that some schemes are unclear.

Onwards.
Given that the Clima (from which we get the English word Climate) vary, the Ascendant and Descendant may take more or less time to rise, so Valens is modifying the system to allow for that. As far as I can see there's no identification of threatening periods, unless he takes a malefic in an angle as providing the threat. But such a system could be used to look at periods of life. Obviously there are problems if you don't have any angular planets, and I think that is why Valens isn't making much of that method.

In my case, I have both malefics in the Ascending sign, with Saturn, the out of sect malefic, conjunct the Ascending degree. So I should not have survived for long, on the interpretation above. In fact, I nearly died in the first hour of life, so perhaps there's something in it.
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RohanMenon  RohanMenon is offline
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Ok Minderwiz, so it seems that


with your clarifications, there might be a way to get an order of planets and use the timings as above. (modified somehow by the times it takes for the associated signs to rise- which is easy enough to determine with modern software).

Still, in the absence of instruction on how exactly to integrate the two (the planetary periods you supply and the rising time of signs, perhaps just a ratio of the latter applied to the former) I think I'll move on to the next section and come back to this later.

Thanks for the clarifications as always.

Quote:
(If you want your own rising times, I can give them to you but they would be tropical, rather than sidereal).
Thanks, but these should be easy enough to work out with Solar Fire, worst case by running it forwards and backwards for the day of my birth, and watching the right ascension degree, or even more easily with *astronomy* visualization tools.

I won't bother you for these, since I don't plan to actually try to resurrect this method. Thanks for the offer!
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Minderwiz  Minderwiz is offline
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Yes, I'd advise you to do that. In the absence of detailed instructions, you would be spending quite some time working out alternative schemes which fit the general situation.

BTW Lilly lists all the planetary periods in his section on the planets. You probably wouldn't notice this, as he does it as part of each planet's description and never summarises it in a table. But his figures for the lesser years are identical to those above, so Lilly is using Hellenistic Astrology, though he got the figures via Arab Astrologers.

Edited to add:

In Chapter (Section) 29, coming up, Valens makes his first reference to Zodiacal Releasing. This is related to the Lot of Travel and it seems that the technique was originally used in that area. Valens' treatment is brief but he returns to the subject in much more detail in Book IV.

It may be that over the intervening period between completing writing Book II and starting Book IV. Valens had been trying out the technique in other areas and found it worked well.
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RohanMenon  RohanMenon is offline
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Read through some sections of Book 2

Section 28: Travel from Hermippos
Section 29: (more on) Travel
Section 30: The predecease of parents
Section 31: Another method about parents
Section 32: The Loss of Parents
Section 33: The separation of parents
Section 34: Free and Slave nativities
Section 35: The 11 phases of the moon and infuence of their effects (note 11 phases instead of the usual 8)
Section 36: What each phase indicates and what effects it has

None of this is particularly interesting, so I skimmed through the long lists of 'if then' rules
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Minderwiz  Minderwiz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RohanMenon View Post
Read through some sections of Book 2

Section 28: Travel from Hermippos
Section 29: (more on) Travel
Section 30: The predecease of parents
Section 31: Another method about parents
Section 32: The Loss of Parents
Section 33: The separation of parents
Section 34: Free and Slave nativities
Section 35: The 11 phases of the moon and infuence of their effects (note 11 phases instead of the usual 8)
Section 36: What each phase indicates and what effects it has

None of this is particularly interesting, so I skimmed through the long lists of 'if then' rules
Section 29 contains Valens first reference to Zodiacal Releasing. It's short, not explained in any detail but it is a procedure that starts with the Lot of Daimon:

We testify to the work of these men. Let us return to our subject.
To distribute the operative chronocratorship according to Abraham, i.e. those which are allotted starting with Daimon (for he does allot in this way, starting where the Lot of Daimon is located at birth):

First look at the ruler of the sign where the Lot is found; then determine how many years its shortest cycle happens to be and divide that amount among the 12 signs starting from Daimon itself, counting through the signs in order. Next, when that cycle is completed, look at the ruler of the next sign after Daimon, determine how many years its cycle happens to be, and divide this [among the 12 signs]. Do the same in the successive signs, if the nativity has any years of life remaining.

If the sign where the chronocratorship happens to be located has a place indicative of travel or the Lot of Travel either [in conjunction], in opposition, or square, or if the stars (especially malefics not at an angle) which are in the signs that receive the allotment from the original sign, have more years than the [nativity’s] basis, then they cause travel.


This procedure, in much more detail underlies Zodiacal Releasing from Spirit.l

(Note: Valens never refers to it as such. The term is a modern one, but Valens does use the word aphesis, when he returns to the topic in Book 4. Aphesis can be interpreted as 'releasing'.

Death or loss of parents was highly significant for people at the time, as parents conferred social status, and often inheritance. You might still argue that's the case. However, unless you happen to have such a case to consider then it's not a bread and butter topic of Astrology.

Much of the rest of Book 2 is rather hapzard. Though he does include some considerations of marriage.
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RohanMenon  RohanMenon is offline
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Hmm I missed that, Mindewiz


I couldn't get past the paragraph

"First look at the ruler of the sign where the Lot is found; then determine how many years its shortest cycle happens to be and divide that amount among the 12 signs starting from Daimon itself, counting through the signs in order. Next, when that cycle is completed, look at the ruler of the next sign after Daimon, determine how many years its cycle happens to be, and divide this [among the 12 signs]. Do the same in the successive signs, if the nativity has any years of life remaining."

maybe because that didn't come with an example!
So Lot of Spirit is in Virgo. The number of years of Mercury is 20. So each of the signs, starting from Virgo get 20/12 = 1.4 years starting from Virgo (so Mercury/Mercury,then Mercury/Venus etc? something like that. (I figured out the ZR algorithm once, but I forgot and now all I remember is that a year is considered to be 360 days, lol)
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Minderwiz  Minderwiz is offline
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Not quite


Mercury gets the first twenty years, followed by Venus (Libra) for the next 8, followed by Mars (Scorpio) for the next 15, and so on.

Within the Virgo period, Mercury gets the first 2- Months, Venus the next 8, Mars the next 15, Jupiter the next 12, Saturn the next 27 (Capricorn). If the round is still in force and the count reaches Virgo again, there's complex rules for the continuation of the Virgo main period.

That's best looked at when we reach Book IV and get onto the full explanation plust examples. The full method makes use of the places that are angular to the Lot of Fortune.
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RohanMenon  RohanMenon is offline
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Valens
Book 2 Section 37 . Injuries and Diseases with Examples in Each sign

Here Valens gives 3 distinct schemes for assigning specific signs to bodyparts (and so diseases that affect them)

In the first two schemes, the Lot of Fortune and Lot of Spirit serve (respectively) as the starting points, and each sign counted from them correspond to specific body parts.

e.g: In Scheme 1, the sign containing Fortune is the 1st sign and corresponds to the breast and sign 7 to the knees
In Scheme 2 the sign containing Spirit is the 1st sign, and corresponds to the heart and sign 7 to the bladder.

Scheme 3 is from Valens's own experience, and assigns body parts *and* diseases on the basis of each named sign.

E.g: Aries is indicative of the head in general and sensory factulties, specifically eyesight. Scorpio indicates the genitals and buttocks, but because of its sting (?) indicates weak eyesight, kidney stones etc. and so on for each sign.

Then Valens asks us to look at the sign where the Lot is located. This indicates the part of body indicated, and possibly the disease. Likewise the sign occupied by Spirit is supposed to 'clarify the disease'.

Third look at which planets are in the "place of Occupation" (1)

If malefics are in these places, (places of fortune, spirit, occupation?) and/or aspect their rulers, injuries and diseases will be quite violent.

(When these places and their rulers are well placed, the native will be hale and hearty.)

Then combine the nature of the planet, (the aspect and?) the sign to foretell the disease.

e.g (given by Valens) Mars is in Aries, the sign of the Lot (of Fortune). Aries represents the head. Scorpio, ruled by Mars represents the buttocks and genitals. So one can predict an injury to these parts. ( at least I assume the Mars rulership of Scorpio is the rationale for predicting injuries to genitals from Mars being in Aries)

Example 1:
Sun, Jupiter (ruler of Daimon), Mars, Lot of Fortune in Capricorn (sixth place)
Moon, Ascendant in Leo (first place)
Mercury, Venus in Aquarius (seventh place)
Saturn (ruler of Lot of Fortune) in Taurus (tenth place)
Lot of Daimon in Pisces (8th)

Hmm I would have thought the Lord of Fortune trining Fortune would be good news, especially since he seems to be in mutual reception with Venus. But it *is* a night birth, and Saturn is the out of sect malefic, which is strongly placed. Mars is also in the sixth)

Valens description of Capricorn (the sign the Lot of Fortune *and* the Lot of Spirit is in)
"Capricorn is indicative of the knees, the sinews, and internal and external sprains and strains because of its mysterious character. It causes weak vision and blindness because of its spiny vertebrae. It causes insanity, troubles from moist things; also delirium, incestuous women, lesbians and nymphomaniacs, banditry, and vice."

So we can expect a disease from this list. (lol at 'incestous women, lesbians and nymphomaniacs' as diseases).

"The native was blind on account of the Pleiades (2) and because of the malefic Saturn, and he had unmentionable vices because of both signs [Capricorn and Taurus].

In addition, Jupiter, the ruler of Daimon (in Pisces), was found in Capricorn.

From these configurations it was clear that he had gout. The Lot and its ruler was sufficient to reveal the disease and the injury"

I have no idea how he zeroed in on blindness vs say incestous women (lol). The gout indication seems to have been Lot of Spirit in Pisces which affects the feet, with Jupiter in the sixth. (something like that).



(1) What is "The Place of Occupation"?
(2) Interesting that Valens takes into account the fixed stars. A list of which stars he considers significant are not in the book so far (or I've missed them. In any case not to self, find a listing of stars *in the Zodiac* and memorize their positions - easier since I use a Sidereal Zodiac and so don't have to account for precession)


I'm internet-deprived for the next two weeks and this is my last post till I get back to civilization
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