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RohanMenon  RohanMenon is offline
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Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
As it's argued that the use of charts in Vedic Astrology comes from Hellenistic influences, I wonder if that approach is also a Hellenistic import?

Vedic Astrologers usually deny the influence or downplay it but there's considerable evidence that the use of charts and much of their interpretation came from that source.
I'm (personally) sure it is a Hellenistic import, though, as you say, Vedic astrologers will mostly downplay / deny it. After importing, Vedic seems to have added/developed many concepts of its own, like karma.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
I

I quote from the book:

'The Lot of Fortune is called the archetypal Lot in Valens....while the Lot of Spirit is called the second Lot.'
Very useful Minderwiz,solid research.
Thanks!
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RohanMenon  RohanMenon is offline
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2nd and 3d places


Places 2 and 3

The 3d Place 'of the Goddess Moon'
1. If the Moon is in the 3d, rules the ascendant or Lot, and is in its own face, the native will have many good things.
2. If the Sun is in this place, with the Moon past new, the native will be apriest/priestess of the Great Goddess.
3. If the Jupiter is with the Moon (in the 3d) the native will be fortunate etc
4. Saturn and Mars in the 3d with the Moon bring bad things (details elided!)
5.If Mercury is in the 3d with the Moon, and rules (who rules? The Moon or Mercury? the sentence as written could mean either) the Lot or the ascendant, the native will foretel everyone's future.


takeaway: Planet X in its joy, and ruling the Lot of Fortune or Ascendant is a pattern with powerful effects, especially when conjunct other planets in that place. Watch for this pattern.

There is a list of illeffects, one for each planet.

Hmm I wasn't aware that the *second* was such a bad house. This reads as bad as the 6th or eighth!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RohanMenon View Post
Places 2 and 3

The 3d Place 'of the Goddess Moon'
1. If the Moon is in the 3d, rules the ascendant or Lot, and is in its own face, the native will have many good things.
2. If the Sun is in this place, with the Moon past new, the native will be apriest/priestess of the Great Goddess.
3. If the Jupiter is with the Moon (in the 3d) the native will be fortunate etc
4. Saturn and Mars in the 3d with the Moon bring bad things (details elided!)
5.If Mercury is in the 3d with the Moon, and rules (who rules? The Moon or Mercury? the sentence as written could mean either) the Lot or the ascendant, the native will foretel everyone's future.
Mercury rules the third, at least that is the meaning of the translation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RohanMenon
Hmm I wasn't aware that the *second* was such a bad house. This reads as bad as the 6th or eighth!
The second, like the sixth, eighth and twelfth makes no major aspect to the Ascendant. Planets placed here have difficulty contributing to the native in. a positive way (but note, if such a planet aspects the Lot, it's ruler, or the Ascendant ruler, things may not be so bad).

The second is post ascensions, (succedent) and so is not as unfortunate as the sixth or twelfth. It's succedent to the first, so it's also less unfortunate than the eighth, which is succedent to the seventh.
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RohanMenon  RohanMenon is offline
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Is Valens's 'from the left' the same as


"in the direction of the signs"?

I understand that he considers the planet casting the aspect in the direction of the signs to be the one dominating the aspect.

The left/right terminology is a little confusing though. Which of left/right corresponds to 'in the direction of the signs' (in Valens)?

example sentence: If Mars is in opposition to the Sun, with Jupiter and Saturn trine with the Sun ***from the right**, the native will lead the masses magnificently and with high rank.

Is "from the right" here the same as 'against the signs'?

So say,Mars in Aries, Sun in Libra. Which of (Jupiter+ Saturn in Aquarius), or (Jupiter + Saturn in Gemini), does he mean when he uses 'from the right' here?

Given the square charts he uses, figuring out left/right is a little confusing. If I could substitute left/right with 'along/contra the signs' it would be much easier to understand the sentence above, and I can think about this independent of the chart type.

Also Valens uses both "from the right" and "to the right". Again would be much easier to reduce all these combinations to "in the order of signs" and "against the order of signs".

Hence the question

Thanks in advance,

EDIT: I think I figured this out

(cast an aspect)To the left == from the right == forward in the direction of signs
(cast an aspect) To the right == from the left == backward against the direction of signs.

So Valens's "Jupiter and Saturn trine with the Sun from the right" is the same as ""Jupiter and Saturn trine with the Sun to the left" is the same as "Jupiter and Saturn cast a trine aspect to the Sun *in the order of signs*. So in the example above, with Sun in Libra, Jupiter and Saturn are in Gemini.

Is this correct Minderwiz?
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RohanMenon  RohanMenon is offline
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While I wait for Minderwiz to confirm


my intepretation of 'to the left' etc (see last post) here are my notes on the next section in Valens

Valens now looks at the effects of planets in trine, opposition, and sextile. Here there is a long list of combinations. If Mars opposes Saturn, then the natives will display such and such traits etc. I can't really see an underlying logic other than the general malefic/benefic associations, so the only way to internalize this material seems to be memorize it. Which I'm not very keen to do.

I think, once I start examining a native chart in detail, I'll work sequentially through all these combinations and see if any match. Over time, this should lead to some inernalization.

The next section is about more combinations signifying 'royal and exalted nativities'. Skimmed.

In the next section, Valens puts forth an interesting idea. Take the sign in which the Lot of Fortune is *as the first house*. Then interpret the chart as usual. However he doesn't tell you what to do when the normal analysis of the chart contradicts this 'LoF sign as first house' analysis.

e.g: In my chart, (Gemini Rising) I have Mercury conjunct Jupiter in the seventh house (Sagittarius). Despite Mercury's detriment, this seems an auspicious configuration. I have the Lot of Fortune in the 11th House (Aries) with Mars(Lot of Fortune's domicile Lord) in Pisces, the 10th. So Lord of the Lot is in the angular 10th. This is good as per Valens.

Now if I were to consider the sign with Lot of Fortune as the first, I'll have Aries as the first place, and Mars the lord of the new 'first place' in the (new) 12 place, which would seem very inauspicious. Thus taking the LoF's place as the first place seems to give a completely different reading than the 'normal' reading.

How to reconcile such different readings when starting from the 'normal' first place vs the PoF first place seems a mystery.

also, a friend of mine who was born 3 days after me also has LoF in Aries, and a mostly similiar chart *when reading from PoF occuping the first place perspective*. He has a very different ascendant from mine and our lives are very dissimilar, in spite of having most planets in the same signs. Reading with LoF occupying the first place would seem to give people born hours apart (me and my friend in this example) the "same" chart. I'm not sure how useful this is.

So, in the end, I am not sure how to *use* this principle from Valens.
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Your interpretation of left and right is correct. If you are in any doubt, rotate the chart till one of the planets you are interested is in the tenth house position. If the other planet you are interested in lies to its left ( in the 'eastern' hemisphere) then the tenth house planet is casting an aspect to the left, I.e. into the twelfth, first, and second. There is no such thing as a left or right opposition, simply an opposition to the fourth.

There is a duplicate set of aspects to the eighth, seventh and sixth but this time to the right, and of course, that opposition to the fourth.

Two things follow.

Firstly, the sign to the left eastern half) are in the direction of signs, beginning again at Aries if necessary. So a square from Aquarius to Taurus is in thebdirection of signs and is cast to the left. Aspects cast to the right are against the order of Signs, beginning again with Pisces, if necessary. Thus a square from Taurus to Aquarius is a square to the right.

With two planets involved, say Jupiter in Taurus and Mars in Aquarius, both are casting squares but Mars' square to its left is stronger than Jupiter's square to its right and Mars dominates.

Describing one in the left position and one in the right can be helpful as long as you realise the direction in which aspects are cast.

Secondly, you now know the seven rays! Two sextiles (left and right,); two squares (left and right) and two trines (left and right) plus one opposition. All seven rays are emitted by each planet simultaneously and constantly. So it's perfectly possible for a planet to cast a ray into an empty place ,(no other planet there,). Later on you will find that such a situation may well be meaningful. Malefic can afflict places, benefics can bonify places and rays can form barriers that contain planets, without aspecting them.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RohanMenon View Post
Now if I were to consider the sign with Lot of Fortune as the first, I'll have Aries as the first place, and Mars the lord of the new 'first place' in the (new) 12 place, which would seem very inauspicious. Thus taking the LoF's place as the first place seems to give a completely different reading than the 'normal' reading.

How to reconcile such different readings when starting from the 'normal' first place vs the PoF first place seems a mystery.

also, a friend of mine who was born 3 days after me also has LoF in Aries, and a mostly similiar chart *when reading from PoF occuping the first place perspective*. He has a very different ascendant from mine and our lives are very dissimilar, in spite of having most planets in the same signs. Reading with LoF occupying the first place would seem to give people born hours apart (me and my friend in this example) the "same" chart. I'm not sure how useful this is.

So, in the end, I am not sure how to *use* this principle from Valens.
You are assuming that the places have the same meanings, which isn't quite the case. The circle that starts with the Lot, tells you about how Fortune affects the various areas of your life. The First, is the house of the Lot itself and that tells you about your own Fortune, relating to body, mind and spirit - your health and your overall capacity to do well, through what fortune gives you. That is no different than how you would read the Lot in your natal chart

The second place from the Lot gives you some information about how Fortune affects your material possessions and your skills. That doesn't contradict what the second place tells you about your material possessions and income in your natal chart, it simply gives you an indication about the amount of 'luck' that goes into accumulating possessions.

The third place tells you something about how fortune affects your brethren (including cousins, neighbours, etc.) The fourth tells you about how Fortune affects your parents and indeed your family as a whole. You can continue around the circle to the twelfth - how Fortune affects, sorrow, losss, enemies, hostile travel, etc.

Remember, Fortune is only one 'half' of the picture. The forces beyond your control that shape your life. Your ability to affect those forces (Spirit or Daimon), also plays a part, as it does for your bretheren, family, children, spouse, etc. That's why it's good to have the Lot of Spirit angular to the Lot of Fortune, or at least favourably placed.

Some people can prosper despite adverse Fortune. Usually that requires hard work and effort, but not always. What might seem a trivial decision to act in a particular way, might well offset bad Fortune, which would befall a person if the action was not carried out. And, of course, Fortune is in the hands of the gods, through the Fates (Moirai and therefore, at least, partly unknowable.
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RohanMenon  RohanMenon is offline
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wow!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
You are assuming that the places have the same meanings, which isn't quite the case. The circle that starts with the Lot, tells you about how Fortune affects the various areas of your life. The First, is the house of the Lot itself and that tells you about your own Fortune, relating to body, mind and spirit - your health and your overall capacity to do well, through what fortune gives you. That is no different than how you would read the Lot in your natal chart

The second place from the Lot gives you some information about how Fortune affects your material possessions and your skills. That doesn't contradict what the second place tells you about your material possessions and income in your natal chart, it simply gives you an indication about the amount of 'luck' that goes into accumulating possessions.

...
Minderwiz this is *the* most mindblowing thing I ever read on astrology in years.

This make a *lot* (no pun intended, heh!) of sense. Wow! I imagine one evaluates these places (as measured from the lot, by planets present in them, aspects cast into them (thanks for the clairification on the left/right semantics, and the 'seven rays' tip), essential and accidental dignity of their lords etc. So if the second place from the Lot of Fortune happens to be fortunate (Say Sagittarius, with Jupiter in it) that would mean you'd be very fortunate with respect to Money, not so much if a weak Saturn is there.



Ahh (lightbulb moment) so this is why Valens (later in Vol 2) considers the 11th from the Lot of Fortune "the place of accomplishment and the bestower of prosperity". By the logic above, this would be where Fortune affects your friends, allies, help received etc - all 11th house significations.

Quote:
The Sun, Jupiter, and Venus (in the 11th from the Lot of Fortune) provide gold, silver, jewellery, and very great property, as well as gifts from the great and from kings
.....
Saturn (in the 11th from the Lot of Fortune) when configured in its proper places makes men rulers of estates and property; if out of place and in the wrong sect it brings disaster, ruin, shipwreck, poverty, and debt. -- Valens
You go on to say

Quote:
Remember, Fortune is only one 'half' of the picture. The forces beyond your control that shape your life. Your ability to affect those forces (Spirit or Daimon), also plays a part, as it does for your bretheren, family, children, spouse, etc. That's why it's good to have the Lot of Spirit angular to the Lot of Fortune, or at least favourably placed.
Aha! In my case (Rising sign Gemini) Lot of Fortune is in Aries (natal 11th) and Lot of Spirit in Leo (Natal 3d). So they are inconjunct each other,not angular,. In the direction of signs, Spirit is in the 5th from Fortune, which would have the semantics of "succedent' I imagine.

So overall interpretation would be something like 'your ability to affect fortune is at most medium, (succedent) but mostly non existent (inconjunct).'

I assume the above logic holds for other lots also. The First Place relative to the Lot of Spirit would show how much your own efforts would affect 'body, mind and spirit - your overall ability to do well' etc.

Thus with my Lot Of Spirit in Leo and with the Sun is Sagittarius, (so trining the Lot of Spirit), this would indicate that my progress depends highly on my own efforts. Something like that.

So each lot then adds a lens through which to view the natal chart and add a perspective to the basic reading. Wow!

Quote:
And, of course, Fortune is in the hands of the gods, through the Fates (Moirai and therefore, at least, partly unknowable.
I suspect this concept would roughly line up with the Indian/Vedic karma, modulo the reincarnation etc bits. Very interesting
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Minderwiz  Minderwiz is offline
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Originally Posted by RohanMenon View Post
Minderwiz this is *the* most mindblowing thing I ever read on astrology in years.
The resulting the chart based on the Lot as first house. is sometimes referred to as the Circle of Athla and the word Athla is the origin of the word Athlete, so it has overtones of competition and struggle, but interestingly, a related Greek word is Athlon, which means a prize.

Technically you could create such a chart using any lot as the first house but I've not seen it done, other than me having a go in a horary sometime ago (years I think). So you could do it from one of the Lots of Marriage, or The Lot of Nemesis, but I don't really see a great deal of use for such charts in regular Astrology. No doubt they could be used for specific consultations though.

It's interesting that some Modern Astrologers seem to think that using some other point as the base of a chart, rather than the Ascendant, is a revolutionary idea. Little do they know LOL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RohanMenon
Ahh (lightbulb moment) so this is why Valens (later in Vol 2) considers the 11th from the Lot of Fortune "the place of accomplishment and the bestower of prosperity". By the logic above, this would be where Fortune affects your friends, allies, help received etc - all 11th house significations.
Exactly so. And of course the eleventh place in a chart has overtones of Jupiter (the eleventh Place is the Joy of Jupiter) and it's the Place of the Good Daimon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RohanMenon
Aha! In my case (Rising sign Gemini) Lot of Fortune is in Aries (natal 11th) and Lot of Spirit in Leo (Natal 3d). So they are inconjunct each other,not angular,. In the direction of signs, Spirit is in the 5th from Fortune, which would have the semantics of "succedent' I imagine.
Well Aries and Leo are not inconjunct signs - they are in a trine relationship. But you are right, Spirit would be in the fifth Place from Fortune.

So overall interpretation would be something like 'your ability to affect fortune is at most medium, (succedent) but mostly non existent (inconjunct).'[/quote]

It's not as bad as that. There is a trine to the right from Spirit to the Lot. Yes it could be better (angular or trine to the left, or even the sextile to the left) But it could be worse, such as a third house relationship. And then it could be inconjunct. Being in the sixth or twelfth relative to Fortune would not be good at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RohanMenon
I assume the above logic holds for other lots also. The First Place relative to the Lot of Spirit would show how much your own efforts would affect 'body, mind and spirit - your overall ability to do well' etc.

Thus with my Lot Of Spirit in Leo and with the Sun is Sagittarius, (so trining the Lot of Spirit), this would indicate that my progress depends highly on my own efforts. Something like that.

So each lot then adds a lens through which to view the natal chart and add a perspective to the basic reading. Wow!
As I said above it could be done but I've not seen it done as a serious exercise on a regular basis. But certainly having Daimon in a trine to the Sun is a very good relationship. Both have signification for honours, success in society and career. Both are also signification for Action.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RohanMenon
I suspect this concept would roughly line up with the Indian/Vedic karma, modulo the reincarnation etc bits. Very interesting
There's no real concept of reincarnations in the Hellenistic approaches, despite Plato's Myth of Er You have your life and you make the most of it based on what the Moirai allot to you (the concept of a lot, again). This isf Fate - Oedipus was fated to kill his father and marry his mother. But it's not really fate in the modern view of the word as purely deterministic. To a greater or lesser degree you might be able to modify the events, even if you can't ultimately avoid them. What we call Free Will, is a power to modify or influence, it's not a power to created major change. You might believe that anyone can become President of the USA, and log cabin to White House is there for all. But if you look, the number of such successes are small. Most come from the ranks of the rich (including Donald Trump) or the ranks of successful Generals (presumably the General Will LOL).
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