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RohanMenon  RohanMenon is offline
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Valens is an Astrologer, talking about both the theory and practice of Astrology and enjoying it. There are others that fall into the same category throughout history, including Lilly and Morin (though Morin is more into the theoretical side). Their Astrology is rigorous, grounded in a philosophical approach and much more focused than what passes for Astrology today.
This a hundred times. I would have thought Valens (once a good book is out) would be really good for beginners to start with. Then (again with a good book) Lilly. Right now the only real options for beginners are modern psychobabble approaches. A friend asked me for a beginner's book and I didn't know what to say. I finally gave her a copy of Avelar et al "Heavenly Spheres" book. Much better than the Steven Forrest etc I started with Lol, though it doesn't have much in the way of predictive technique

Quote:
However, what Valens and his era produced is, still with us: Charts, the Ascendant and angles, aspects, signs and the zodiac, houses and house meanings. It's just that they make so much more out of it than the modern Astrologer.
again, +100.
Top   #81
RohanMenon  RohanMenon is offline
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Valens Horoscope #5


ASC: Libra . Night Birth
Sun, Mercury, Saturn, Jupiter - Sagittarius (3d)
Moon in Cancer (10th)
Venus in Libra (1st)
Mars in Virgo (12th)

Lot of Fortune (by calculation)
= ASC + (Sun - Moon) ;; since night birth
= ASC + 5 signs = in Pisces (9th)

Lot of Spirit (by calculation, so only roughly)
= ASC + (Moon - Sun)
= ASC - 5 signs = Taurus (8th)

Lot of Exaltation: In Leo (11th)

Algorithm:
1. Sect Leader = Moon in Cancer
2. Triplicity Leaders (in order): Mars, Venus, Moon
3. Evaluation of triplicity leaders:
a. Mars: In its own triplicity (cadent, 12th house)
b. Venus: Not in its own triplicity, angular (in ascendant),and Lord of ascendant
c. Moon: In its own triplicity, (angular, natal 10th place, domicile lord)
4. Judgment of 'halves of life.

The second half of life is better than the first. The *third* "supporting" triplicity Lord, the Moon, is quite strong,so maybe there is some 'background to eminence' throughout his life.

5. Lot of Fortune is in Pisces in the 6th. Cadent House, and 6th isn't a good house. Lord Jupiter is in the (natal) third (Sagittarius, again cadent,not so good) but 10th from Lot, and in its own domicile. This is very good. Squares the Lot of Fortune. (not so good? but again this is Jupiter, so maybe even the square aspect is good?) The powerful natal 10th Lord (Moon) trines the Lot of Fortune 'to the left'. Very good.

Lot of Spirit (by rough calculation, so could be off) is in Taurus in the natal 8th . 3d from Lot of Fortune, not so great. Its lord is in the natal 1st (so angular) which is great.

Lot of Exaltation: in Leo (11th natally, 6th from Lot). Ruler Sun is in Sagittarius (3d natally, 10th from Lot of Fortune)

Place of Prosperity = 11th from Lot of Fortune = Capricorn. This is the natal 4th. No planets here. Lord Saturn in natal 3d, but 10th from Lot, and conjunct Jupiter,which is very good but the Lord is inconjunct the place itself.

Ok so again in my *personal* opinion, the Lot of Fortune isn't all that well placed with as many negative testimonies as positive. The eminence of this horoscope is read easily from the *natal* placements of planets however. Lord of Ascendant in the ascendant, and lord of the 10th in the 10th is quite striking. Adding lot of Exaltation being in 10th from Fortune, and Lord of Fortune being in 10th from Lot (though natally cadent) indicates eminence.

Ok so that's my reading. IF this were a real person for whom I'm trying to read a chart, I'd be very puzzled by the cadency of the Lot of Fortune *and* its Lord (6th and 3d natally). How to interpret that in a fashion my 'client' would find useful?

Something like "Fortune comes, but only with much delay and hard work?" something like that.

Valens says
Quote:


"Since this was a night birth, we find the Moon in the triangle of Mars [Cancer Scorpio Pisces] with Mars itself and the Lot of Fortune and its ruler [Jupiter] preceding angles Therefore he lived his first years humbly and in poverty; he experienced captivity and servitude and was involved in many dangers.

But since the stars of the same sect happened to be in operative places, he came into friendships and associations and received positions of royal trust. Since the exaltation of the nativity was found in Leo, and its ruler, the Sun, was at MC relative to the Lot of Fortune, he was thought worthy of the governorship and a position of power.
the "stars in the same sect being in operative places" is something I didn't see at all.
Top   #82
RohanMenon  RohanMenon is offline
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Valens Horoscope # 6


ASC: Taurus (1st)
Sun, Mercury: Capricorn (9th)
Moon, Venus: Sagittarius (8th)
Mars: Aquarius (10tn)
Jupiter: Libra (6th)
Saturn: Scorpio (7th)

Lot of Fortune: Aries (12th)
Lot of Spirit: (calculated by sign) probably Gemini (2nd)
Lot of Exaltation: (calculated by sign) roughly Leo (4th)

Day birth (the Sun not having set), so sect leader = Sun
Sun in Capricorn . Triplicity leadars are in order Moon, Venus, Mars
First half of life: Moon in Sagittarius - the natal 8th and 9th from Lot of Fortune, not in its own triangle
Second half of life: Venus is in the natal 8th, 9th from Lot of Fortune, in its own triplicity
"Supporting" Trigon lord (Mars) - natal 10th(nice), 11th from Lot of Fortune(very nice), not in its own Triplicity

Overall the second half of life seems better. Another case where the supporting lord seems to be pulling the native through, though the first and 2nd lords are only so so, though the second half lord is better than the first.

Lot of Fortune in the natal 12th (ouch) ruled by Mars (ouch) BUT Mars is in 11th from Fortune.

Lot of Spirit in natal 2nd, ruled by Mercury, who is in in natal 9th, 10th from Lot of Fortune

Lot of Exaltation: in natal 4th, fifth from Fortune, with Ruler Sun in natal 9th, and 10th from Lot of Fortune

Lords of the Lots of Spirit and Exaltation are (signwise) conjunct in the natal 9th and 10th from Fortune.

Looks like a selfmade man, who 'makes his own luck'.

Finally "Place of Prosperity" = 11th from Fortune = Aquarius. Ruled by Saturn, with Lord of Fortune Mars in it.

Valens says (after mentioning many of the factors above); "This nativity too was at first irregular and mediocre, but later he rose and gained chaplets and a high priesthood."

How is the 'high priesthood' indicated? Jupiter is in the 6th but mutual reception with Venus . Hmm the natal 9th house is 11th from Fortune and has Lord of Fortune, so maybe that's why? No idea.
Top   #83
RohanMenon  RohanMenon is offline
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Horoscope # 7.


Ascendant Libra
Sun, Mercury in Cancer (10th)
Moon in Tarus (8th)
Jupiter, Mars in Leo (11th)
Venus in Virgo (12th)
Saturn in Pisces (6th)

Lot of Fortune in Leo.
Lot of Spirit in Sagittarius.
Lot of Exaltation Cancer (given).

Day birth (Sun in the 10th!). So sect Lord = Sun
In Cancer. Therefore triplicity lords in order = Mars, Venus, Moon

First Half of Life ruled by Mars. Mars is in Leo, in its own triplicity, 11th natally, succedent. same place as Fortune, so relatively angular. Excellent. Lord Sun in natal 10th, 12th from Fortune. Conjunct Jupiter!

Second Half of Life ruled by Venus in Virgo:In its own triplicity. In natal 12th, so cadent.3d from Fortune, so relatively cadent. Lord Mercury in natal 10th, Cancer, (excellent), 12th from Fortune.

Supporting Trigon Lord: Moon, in Taurus, in natal 8th (bad place), succedent, but exalted in Taurus. In its own triplicity. In 10th from Lot of Fortune. Lord of natal 10th.

First half of life looks better than the second, which seems shakier. Supporting Lord is strong (modulo placement in natal 8th)

Lot of Fortune. in Leo, natal 11th, with Lord Sun in natal 10th (Cancer) and 12th from Lot .

Lot of Spirit: In natal 3d (Sagittarius) with Lord Jupiter in Leo, the natal 11th (wowza!) . Sixth (and so relativel cadent) from Lot of Fortune.

Lot of Exaltaton in Cancer, natal 11th, conjunct Jupiter, with Lord Moon in Taurus, 10th from MC.

Place of prosperity = 11th from Lot of Fortune = 11th from Leo = Gemini. No planets here, but Lord Mercury is in 12th from Lot of Fortune with Lord ofFortune. So good. (but repeated cadency hmm)

Very emininent nativity. Ok that is my judgment. (the cadency worries me. Still..)

Valens says.
Quote:
"This nativity too was illustrious and distinguished. The native was entrusted with royal office and was thought worthy of a high priesthood. The ruler [Mars] of the triangle [Cancer Scorpio Pisces] was found with the ruler of Daimon [Jupiter] in [the XI Place of] Good Daimon and with the Lot of Fortune.
The Sun, at MC, was assigned the Lot. The ruler of the exaltation, the Moon, was at MC relative to the Lot of Fortune.

The Place of Accomplishment was irregular and unstable, sometimes being too full, at other times empty, for Saturn and Venus were in aspect to it [square]"
Whoa . I didn't understand that last sentence *at all*.

Minderwiz, some help? where did the "sometimes full and sometimes empty"come from? and what does that even mean?
Top   #84
RohanMenon  RohanMenon is offline
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[Detour] Wrestling with the Lots - 1


In all the above examples Valens is doing basically two things.

1. Evaluating the state of the three triplicity lords of the sect light, and using these states to look at the relative goodness or badness of the first and second halves of life. So some people start with poor or mediocre circumstances, then the second half of life is bettor or vice versa. Valens mentions that such shifts happen when the relevant chronocator 'rises'. I understand this, and more importantly have verified this with charts of friends and family.

2. Evaluating the chart with regards to the Lots of Fortune, Spirit and exaltation.
He seems to do two levels of analysis.
a. The place of each Lot, its Lord's place and the aspects each receives. This 'standard' astrlogical analysis, almost as if the Lots were planets, except that they don't 'emit' aspects, only receive them.

e.g: In my birth chart, the Lot of Spirit is in Leo (3d place of the Goddess), with Lord Sun in Sagittarius, so trining the Lot. The Moon in Libra sextiles (by sign only, not by degree, though the Lot *is* witihn the moeity). This should generally indicate good things.

b. He takes the place of the Lot of Fortune as the 'first place" and evaluates the other lots with respect to *this* starting point. I don't yet have a solid grip on this, but I can follow an analysis.

But.

With regard to *evaluating* the Lots (and places related to them like Place of Prosperity), especially for specific examples, Valens is able to read extra information into it that I can't.

See the example chart # 7.
Valens says " The Place of Accomplishment was irregular and unstable, sometimes being too full, at other times empty, for Saturn and Venus were in aspect to it [square]".

I have no idea how this interpretation is drawn from the chart. So I assume I'm missing something. Time to explore.

What do I need to learn to solve this confusion? What questions do I have?

1. What is the philosophy or theory behind the Lots? (doesn't need to be absolutely correct, I just need a working model so I can apply thinking to it)

2. Given a specific placement of each Lot (in place X, aspected by Y and Z, in place A relative to Fortune) I need a methodology (simple is good) to anylyze the effects in a *concrete* manner.

I have the beginnings of such an approach by combining Minderwiz' hints (see his earlier post on how the various places starting from Lot of Fortune give information about how fortune affects each natal house) with what Valens says with respect to a specific chart. More on this later.

Back to question 1. What is the theory or philosophy of the Lots?


Chris Brennan has an excellent paper [1] on the 7 Hermetic Lots that seems, at first glance to answer question 1 about the philosophy or theory behind the lots.. While not based primarily on Valens, he has some excellent points in the paper work that might be useful to summarize here.

From the paper
"The end result of this attempt to reconstruct the theoretical rationale underlying the calculations of the seven Hermetic lots is the discovery of a highly complex and subtle conceptualization of the natures of the Lots of Fortune and Spirit."

Sounds like what I need to learn. Let us get started.

(More to come. I'll be working through the paper paragraph by paragraph, and when done will correlate what I learned with what Valens says and see if they mesh. )

[1] The paper is at http://www.chrisbrennanastrologer.co...-Rationale.pdf
Top   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RohanMenon View Post
Minderwiz, some help? where did the "sometimes full and sometimes empty"come from? and what does that even mean?
This is a night chart. The most favourable planet in the chart is the benefic of sect, Venus. The most unfavourable planet in the chart is the out of sect malefic, Saturn.

At the place of accomplishment is aspected by both of these planets at the same time, the outcome will be variable - sometimes good, sometimes poor. In Hellenistic Astrology, planets are not always active. so it's very possible that sometimes Venus is active but Saturn isn't (outcome = good) but at other times, Saturn is active and Venus isn't (outcome = poor). If both are simultaneously active, we would need to look at the chart to see which, if either, might dominate.

Modern authors might try to blend the two meanings and come up with the situation always being mediocre (as both planets are active at the same time),

Quote:
Originally Posted by RohanMenon View Post
What do I need to learn to solve this confusion? What questions do I have?

1. What is the philosophy or theory behind the Lots? (doesn't need to be absolutely correct, I just need a working model so I can apply thinking to it)

2. Given a specific placement of each Lot (in place X, aspected by Y and Z, in place A relative to Fortune) I need a methodology (simple is good) to anylyze the effects in a *concrete* manner.

I have the beginnings of such an approach by combining Minderwiz' hints (see his earlier post on how the various places starting from Lot of Fortune give information about how fortune affects each natal house) with what Valens says with respect to a specific chart. More on this later.

Back to question 1. What is the theory or philosophy of the Lots?


Chris Brennan has an excellent paper [1] on the 7 Hermetic Lots that seems, at first glance to answer question 1 about the philosophy or theory behind the lots.. While not based primarily on Valens, he has some excellent points in the paper work that might be useful to summarize here.

From the paper
"The end result of this attempt to reconstruct the theoretical rationale underlying the calculations of the seven Hermetic lots is the discovery of a highly complex and subtle conceptualization of the natures of the Lots of Fortune and Spirit."

Sounds like what I need to learn. Let us get started.

(More to come. I'll be working through the paper paragraph by paragraph, and when done will correlate what I learned with what Valens says and see if they mesh. )

[1] The paper is at http://www.chrisbrennanastrologer.co...-Rationale.pdf
Chris' paper is a good starting point. It's also worth remembering that the original use of Lots, was to allot property in a Greek city state (Polis). The use spread even to using Lots to allocate positions in the cirty administration, though it was not used for positions requiring expertise (such as generals). Plato had reservations about this use, pointing out that allocation by lot didn't necessarily lead to the best people appointed to the jobs. He suggested that as well as the allocation by Lot, there should be prayers to Zeus and Good Fortune (my italics).

That was some three hundred years before Hellenistic Astrology began, yet even then there is some connection between allotment and Fortune.

Manilius' Astronomica is one of the earliest texts we have (first century CE) and that simply mentions a Lot of Fortune, as do the snippets from Nechepso, Petosiris and other early Astrologers.

But even back in Plato's time (early fourth Century BCE), there was a connection between personal daimons and allotment. In the Myth of Er (Plato's Republic) souls choose their forthcoming life by lot order, and that choice involves receiving a personal daimon (a being that Valens also believed in and refers to).

The two principles of chance (tuche) and some guidance from the gods, which might be for good or ill or even withheld on the whim of the god permeated the culture in which Astrology began to flourish. So it's not surprising that the concept of Lots made its way into that newly born Astrology.

By Valens' time (Second century CE) more Lots had been introduced. You've already come across the Lot of Exaltation and you will meet the Lots of Eros and Necessity. By Paulus' time there were at least the seven hermetic Lots and other Lots for specific purposes (Valens mentions Lots for marriage). By the turn of the millenium, Arabic Astrologers had over 100 Lots for all sorts of things, often to do with trade (there was a Lot of Barley, for example). If I remember correctly, it was Al Biruni who complained about the multiplicity of Lots. But by Lilly's time, only Fortune remained in regular use, and that is still the situation today. Perhaps that's not surprising because we too, as a culture, are addicted to lotteries!
Top   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
This is a night chart. The most favourable planet in the chart is the benefic of sect, Venus. The most unfavourable planet in the chart is the out of sect malefic, Saturn.

At the place of accomplishment is aspected by both of these planets at the same time, the outcome will be variable - sometimes good, sometimes poor. In Hellenistic Astrology, planets are not always active. so it's very possible that sometimes Venus is active but Saturn isn't (outcome = good) but at other times, Saturn is active and Venus isn't (outcome = poor). If both are simultaneously active, we would need to look at the chart to see which, if either, might dominate.
This is totally awesome Thank You.

Quote:
Modern authors might try to blend the two meanings and come up with the situation always being mediocre (as both planets are active at the same time),
I did exactly this!! Saturn and Venus squaring, so good and bad blah blah. I didn't think of individual planets (and their aspects) being activated etc (which was the key step to understanding "sometimes full, sometimes empty) and considered these aspects to be "always on" . My bad. More bad habits from 'modern' astrology to be scrubbed from my brain LOL.


Quote:
Chris' paper is a good starting point. It's also worth remembering that the original use of Lots, was to allot property in a Greek city state (Polis).
Oh I see, so 'lot' by itself has the connotation of 'allotment' . Yes that makes sense.

Quote:
In the Myth of Er (Plato's Republic) souls choose their forthcoming life by lot order, and that choice involves receiving a personal daimon (a being that Valens also believed in and refers to).
Mind Blown.

Quote:
The two principles of chance (tuche) and some guidance from the gods, which might be for good or ill or even withheld on the whim of the god permeated the culture in which Astrology began to flourish. So it's not surprising that the concept of Lots made its way into that newly born Astrology.
Got it.

Quote:
By Valens' time (Second century CE) more Lots had been introduced. You've already come across the Lot of Exaltation and you will meet the Lots of Eros and Necessity. By Paulus' time there were at least the seven hermetic Lots and other Lots for specific purposes (Valens mentions Lots for marriage). By the turn of the millenium, Arabic Astrologers had over 100 Lots for all sorts of things, often to do with trade (there was a Lot of Barley, for example). If I remember correctly, it was Al Biruni who complained about the multiplicity of Lots. But by Lilly's time, only Fortune remained in regular use, and that is still the situation today. Perhaps that's not surprising because we too, as a culture, are addicted to lotteries!
Lol. 7 ( or less) lots should be more than enough. I think Valens will get to at least 5 (fortune ,exaltation, basis, Eros , Necessity - that's 5 . I'm sure a couple more will turn up.

Thanks again, Minderwiz, very helpful as always. Greatly appreciated.
Top   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RohanMenon View Post
T
Lol. 7 ( or less) lots should be more than enough. I think Valens will get to at least 5 (fortune ,exaltation, basis, Eros , Necessity - that's 5 . I'm sure a couple more will turn up.

Thanks again, Minderwiz, very helpful as always. Greatly appreciated.
It's easy to begin adding more and more Lots, as the history of Astrology shows. The trouble is that as there are only seven planets and the Ascendant, some lots have to double up, depending on context, or the AStrologer needs to use Lots based at least partly on other Lots (though Lots based on Fortune and Spirit seem to be the most valid).You will also find Lots for the same thing, which have different formulae, depending on the Astrologer; Marriage being a case in point, where even Valens has more than one (though with some justification, as you can look at marriage in different ways, e.g. as a contract and therefore a legal relationship, or a love match, which doesn't have to be legally binding, or a religious requirement/condition).

You will find Lots which use house cusps, and Lots which project from a different point than the Ascendant (there's a case for Lots projected from the Lot of Fortune, in the same way that there's a case for a house system based on Fortune), but you can project from any point such as a house cusp, another Lot, or if you want, the Antiscion of Mercury. The problem is now clear. Because you can create an almost infinite number of Lots (it probably is astrolnomically high if you use modern planets, asteroids, hypotheticals, etc) but just because you can do it, does that mean that you should do it? It loses sight of the rationale for doing it and the underlying validity of the Lot.

I use Morinus Traditional, for Lots, even though Delphic Oracle can supply dozens and dozens of them. Morinus allows them to be entered individually, so you only have the Lots you need and allows them to be switched on and off, so you only have the Lots you need for a particular horary question. I currently have 27 Lots, but most of these are for specific horary questions, such as marriage/relationships, property and real estate, key relative such as father, mother, brothers, sisters. Even then, I use them sparingly.

Fortune and Spirit I always keep switched on and in Delphic Oracle I have all seven Hermetic Lots switched on. I don't really use Solar Fire for Lots, it's too rigid, though I have added the Lot of Spirit to my charts.
Top   #88
RohanMenon  RohanMenon is offline
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I currently have 27 Lots, but most of these are for specific horary questions, such as marriage/relationships, property and real estate, key relative such as father, mother, brothers, sisters. Even then, I use them sparingly.
Wow 27 lots! :-D

I think I'll stick with the "Valens 5" - Fortune, Spirit, Exaltation, Love, Necessity - for now, lol ,lol.

That said, I've never heard of Lots (except Fortune) being used in horary. But on the other hand, you did note the repeated aspects of a Lot (of Friendship) in a horary question I asked here and it was astoundingly accurate. So it obviously works.

I'd like your opinions on two questions I have - whenever you have the time, no hurry. This is Holiday season. (Happy Holidays!)

1. Do you think it makes sense to look at lots specific to the question when doing horary? (like you used Lot of Friendship for my question)

2. Do you think tracking transits to Lots makes sense for annual predictions etc?

context: My birthday is in January, and I'd like to do a one year 'personal radar' for 2017. Right now my predictive technique is limited to Solar and Lunar Return charts, and transits.

I've recently understood basic profection technique - annual profection of the ascendant etc. I noticed (from skimming ahead in the book) that Valens seems to profect the Lot of Fortune and Sect Lord as well. I understand how Zodiacal Releasing is calculated, but not how to interpret, so won't be using this technique

So I was planning to use these three techniques (which are all I know lol) - Solar/Lunar returns, partile transits, and (experimentally) profections to map out what the 'sensitive points' of next year will be like for me. My question is essentially , if watching transits etc to the five basic Valens lot makes sense
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RohanMenon  RohanMenon is offline
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Valens Horoscope #8


Ascendant Leo (1st)
Sun, Jupiter, Mars, Venus in Scorpio (4th)
Moon in Aries (9th)
Saturn in Libra (3d)
Mercury in Sagittarius (5th)
Lot of Fortune (by Calculation,night birth) Pisces (8th)
Lot of Exaltation (roughly) 2nd (Virgo)
Lot of Spirit (roughly, not given, by calculation) Capricorn (6th)


Lord of Sect (since night birth, Leo rising, Sun in Scorpio, 4th, so 'below ground) Moon.
Moon in Aries in the natal 9th. So trigon lords are Jupiter, Sun, Saturn

First half of life; From Jupiter in the 4th (angular) not in its own trigon, 9th from Fortune
Second half of life: From Sun in 4th (angular) not in its own trigon, 9th from Fortune
Supporting trigon Lord : Saturn in 3d, cadent, not in its own trigon ,8th from Fortune. Pretty weak (though exalted in Libra)

So not much change - no drastic rise/fall between the two halves of life.

Lot of Fortune in the 8th. Not good. Lord in the relative 9th and natal 4th. good.

Lot of exaltation in the natal 2nd. Succedent. So angular wrt Fortune. Good. Lord in 10th relative to Fortune. Very good.

Lot of Spirit(speculative) in tha natal 6th. Cadent. Lord in the 11th from Fortune. Very good.

Place of Prosperity (11th from Fortune) is Capricorn. Natal 6th. But Lord Saturn is exalted in Libra and trines it. So very good.

Ok I wouldn't hve judged this as a particularly eminent nativity. Except the Ploce of Prosperity (which seems very strong, the rest of the testimonies are mixed (imho). I guess Moon in the same place as Lot of Fortune (close to Full Moon?) pushes it over the edge.

Valens says

Quote:
The ruler of the exaltation, Mercury, was found in Sagittarius, at MC relative to the Lot of Fortune, and it elevated the nativity with respect to livelihood. Likewise the rulers [Sun Jupiter] of the triangle [of the Sun: Aries Leo Sagittarius] and of the Lot of Fortune were found at IC. This made him miserly, unambitious, and niggardly.
I don't understand how Valens derived 'miserly' etc.

But more importantly, I thought the Moon was the sect Lord. If Leo is rising, surely Scorpio (where the Sun is) is below the horizon?. And the Moon in Aries is above the horizon? What am I missing?
Top   #90

 





 


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