My views on the early Rider decks and the article of Pietro Alligo.

truelighth

Warning: VERY long post :-D


I have recently had a lot of conversations with someone who is doing research about the early Rider Waite editions and most specifically the line art and the differences. This has made me revisit my own old RWS decks and the articles written about the early Rider Waite editions.

In the thread about the Roses&Lilies deck with the letter from Rider that was sold on Ebay, there were a lot of discussions and theories posed. Also by me. I stated that I consider the Roses&Lilies deck to be the first version, but could not really point out why.
Having re-read and revisited the materials that I do have, among which the article from Pietro Alligo about the early RWS editions, the book from Frank Jensen and also the post from OnePotato on the subject, I came to some thoughts and realisations, I would like to share.

It mostly concerns the article of Pietro Alligo and why in my opinion the theory he poses that the Pam B/C decks were printed first, is faulty. I do want to state I very much appreciate and honor the work he has done on the early Rider decks.

Yet, the theory always bothered me. In the first instance, because the line art is so much inferior on the Pam B and C decks, compared to the Pam-A. And I don’t believe Pixie would have delivered sub-standard work. Looking at her other artwork, which is gorgeous, the faces and line art on the Pam-A fit. As where the art on the Pam B and C decks, does not.

In the article of Pietro Alligo, he states that one of the reasons he believes the Pam B/C deck is the original deck, is because so many adjustments have been made. The first adjustment he mentions if that of the Child’s hand on the Sun card. It is indeed true that the hand on the Sun card in the B/C deck is strange. The colouring is wrong, the proportions are not in line with the rest of the body and the banner is also misaligned. Pietro states that he believes that Waite himself probably asked for this modification, which was then adjusted by the copiers. This may be true, but I that if Waite indeed overlooked the process, he would approve of such a crude modification.

The next adjustment and of course the subject of lot of discussion, is the Ray on the Sun card. Which does appear on the Pam-A, but not on the Pam-B and in a different form on the Pam-C. Pietro Alligo proposes that originally there was no Ray, resulting in the Pam-B. However, due to a accident with the black printing stone, the stone was cracked. Causing the crack to appear, extending all the way to the eyebrow of the Sun. The printers erased most of the crack with pumice in two stages, first most of the Ray/crack. Later also by removing the little line left at the eyebrow. There are decks out there who support this part. My deck has the little line. The C deck that Frank Jensen used in his book, does not.

In the article, the theory is posed that since it was difficult to correct the crack, they woud have left the ray, since it would not really unbalance the drawing. And that future versions (being the Roses&Lilies deck and the Pam-A) have copied this line. However, I can’t believe that if Waite was really overlooking the process and being very precise about the images, like with the Child’s hand, he would approve of such an extra line suddenly appearing. This to me seems odd. It also doesn’t explain why the printers suddenly added a lot of extra lines to the banner on the Sun card on the C version. The B version has virtually no lines on the banner, only on top and there are also dots missing on one of the sunflowers. The C version, apart from the Ray, also suddenly has the lines on the banner and the dots on the sunflower. It seems more plausible to me that the initial copiers had forgotten the lines, dots and the ray in the first printings (Pam-B) and they were later added to adjust the cards. If you look at the Pam-B, it actually seems strange only the top of the banner has the extra lines and the rest of the banner is lacking these.

In the discussion thread I mentioned earlier, Bill Wolf, who knows more about lithography and printing processes then I do, mentions that cracked stones would not behave as described in the article and that any surface scratch could have easily have been fixed in a matter of minutes. Which would not make it nessesary for a whole new printing. Combine this the images of the Sun card that were published in the Occult Review in December 1909 (where the Sun card actually has a wrong number XVIII, but is already showing the much discussed Ray, it makes it clear that this line, was supposed to be on the card all along. Which makes the theory of the cracked stone causing this line less plausible.

Now, the reason for me to write this post/article, is not just to pick apart Pietro Alligo’s article. It is also to share my theory on the early Rider Waite versions.

My theory is that the Roses&Lilies deck was the very first edition, printed in 1909. Due to the inferior quality of the card stock, which made the backs peel off and other problems, Rider decided to re-print on better card stock. I believe Bill Wolf was correct in his assumption that the Rider company probably filled the initial orders by sending out the Roses&Lilies decks, with the letter that the deck could be exchanged once the new edition was printed. The Roses&Lilies deck with the letter from Rider that Tarotwolf won on the auction, is a further indication of this. As is the fact that not many Roses&Lilies decks have survived compared to the crackled back Pam-A. Many were probably destroyed.

In the biography of Waite is written that Waite himself spoke of a second edition printed in 1910 on paper of superior quality. This edition would be the crackled back Pam-A, which indeed also replaced many Roses&Lilies decks. In fact, the card quality of the crackled Pam-A is indeed superior. Also, the forementioned image of the Sun card from article on the Occult Review, shows the line art as is present in both the Roses&Lilies and the crackled back Pam-A. Which to me points that this is the original art.

The line art in both the Pam B and C is different. If you look closely to the art, it is much more sloppy, faces are different. The symbols on the dress of the woman on the 9 of pentacles are added later, as well as many other details. I believe the Pam-B and Pam-C were printed later and that new copiers have copied the images to new plates. Although these copiers have not carefully followed the original line art. Of these two decks, the Pam-B probably came first, followed later by the Pam-C. The line art in both decks is the same, except for the Sun card. And because of the reasons described above (the lines on the banner, dots on the sunflower and the Ray), it seems plausible that the Pam-B was printed first and that these corrections were made for a later print run, resulting in the Pam-C. One question on these do remain, and that is why there are two version of the Pam-C. One version with the extra line at the eyebrow of the Sun and one without.

Conclusion, the Roses&Lilies deck was printed and published first, followed by the crackled back Pam-A. Then later the Pam-B was published for a short time, followed by the Pam-C.

Where the Pam-D comes in this story? I believe this deck was published even later then the Pam-B and Pam-C. The Pam-D seems to be a photographic copy of the Pam-A, but of much less quality. But this just my opinion.

Then lastly, I would like to also pose one more opinion, that is different from what Frank Jensen wrote in his book. He considers the Roses&Lilies deck and the crackled back Pam-A to be the same and calls them Pam-A. However, they are not. Even though they are similar in line art, there are some substantial differences. The backs are different as well as the card stock. But there are also differences in the colours. The colours on the Roses&Lilies seem much more saturated. The crackled back version has more cropped images then the Roses&Lilies. And some images have ever so subtle differences in colouring. On the Roses&Lilies deck, the boots of the man on the 7 of Pentacles are the same colour. On the crackled back the boots are different colours.

I therefore believe that the Roses&Lilies deck and the crackled back Pam-A should be considered different print-runs and editions and also be addressed that way. And maybe even deserve their own categorization, instead of both being referred to as Pam-A.
Anyway, this has become quite a long post. I would appreciate any feedback or thoughts.

One last bit of tidbit for anyone who loves the old Rider decks like I do. Another copy of the Roses&Lilies deck has shown up and is now in the possession of a tarot collector. This means that there are now four known copies of the Roses&Lilies deck.
 

roppo

Truelighth, I agree with your theory, which is substantially same as mine. R&L decks are the very first RWS of December 1909, followed by cracked-back Pam-As of April 1910. I'm sorry but I think Mr Alligo's theory of the cracked stone is wrong.

My theory on Pam-B is that Pam-As were sold out around 1914 and Rider planned to reprint the deck, but due to the war-shortage they couldn't procure the photo-litho-printing materials. So they printed Pam-B by lithograph only, lines being manually copied. Pam-Cs were modified version of B and the aim was to make B resemble to the images printed in the PKT (especially, the Sun). I'm making up the story from the price-down of the RWS pack in 1915.

I suppose Pam-Ds are photographic copies of Pam-A, and the printing date seems around 1933 (judging from the advertisements in The Occult Review)

And I believe A.E. Waite had little or no role in the actual printing of the decks; his position was a superviser of several Trumps, and he admitted in his tarot article that he had no interest in the sale of the deck. And Rider never mentioned the name of Waite in the adverts of their pack ; always "designed and coloured by Pamela Colman Smith" only. Of course I'm fully aware that these buisiness contracts cannot be proven unless the relevant documents are cited. And the documents were most probably destroyed during the London Blitz.
 

OnePotato

Bravo, Truelighth!

Thank you for laying this out for everyone.
It appears to be sound reasoning that is best supported by the known facts.
As Mr Roppo, I also agree with it.

Thank you Mr Roppo for adding the info on dating of the editions.
I think the full series of advertisements very likely sheds a lot of light on the likely dates of various printings.

The Pam-D is almost certainly a photo repro of a Pam-A.
I would look at the tell-tale blemishes or quirks that photo repro would capture.
Off the top of my head, I'm guessing that by the time it was made, photo-litho technology had advanced from where it was in 1909, and made it feasible to make a good copy.
I would like to know if it is a photo of a printed Pam-A deck, or a photo of some kind of master print of the black plate, with newly created Benday screening/color plates.
Either way, it is very interesting to note that they went back to the Pam-A, rather than use the Pam-B or Pam-C as the source.

As you said, I've explained my disagreement with the "cracked stone" Pam-C earlier.

PCS writes in her letter to Stieglitz, November 19, 1909, that:
"...I've just finished a big job for very little cash! A set of designs for a pack of _Tarot_ cards. 80 designs. I shall send some over - the original drawings - as some people _may_ like them! - I will send you a pack (printed in color by lithography) - (_probably_ very badly!) as soon as they are ready - by Dec 1 - I think."

She has the original drawings, and is sending them on consignment for sale.
This means that when it is time to do a reprint years later, Rider will no longer have access to her original drawings. They will be forced to use the copyist's art from the original printing, or a sample printed deck, and thus we have Pam-B and Pam-C.

Also, she has not seen the final printed result yet.
She specifies that she will send a printed copy of the deck, clearly apart from the original art. When she adds that it will _probably_ be printed very badly, I believe she is likely referring to the then-current lithography practice of having technicians do the color separations and add in the benday screens that interpret her color choices. She knows that despite the expertise of the print technicians and copyists, no hand copy can live up to her original work, and is half-jokingly making an excuse for the result that is out of her hands, yet will carry her name.

I'd like to see actual examples of all five versions together before I would state an opinion on whether Pam-A is a mechanical copy or hand copy of PCS's original drawings. I suspect it is a photo as Roppo has suggested, and that he is also quite right about Pam-B and Pam-C being hand copies. (And Pam-D is a photo-repro of Pam-A.)
(ETA: It's possible, though maybe not really likely, that the pics in the Occult Review were metal type photo-repros of black key-line prints pulled from the stones that were drawn by a copyist from her originals. But that's another discussion.)

I would also add that the cropping differences alone suggest almost beyond a reasonable doubt that the Rose & Lillies was done first.
In all likelihood, they wanted to widen the margins a touch to help better register the trim, so they cropped a tiny bit.
I also suspect they had problems registering the back margins with the front margins & the trim, which may have added incentive to switch to the full bleed of the crackleback, in addition to the need for better quality cardstock.

Also, I believe the crackle back pattern was very possibly pre-printed by the paper supplier, thus speeding the production time of the deck. (It would be interesting to examine other decks of cards from other publishers of the time to see if any of them share the exact crackle design.)

Anyway, thanks again for the post!

Best, Bill
 

Elven

I am very intrigued with discussion, and I am only just very recently studying the card designs of these decks.
I have no theory, but just my observation at this very early point of my study on one of the cards you mention The Sun. Please excuse my ignorance as I am keen to read any observations by others on the comparisons of these decks and their printings. Maybe someone can point me to the Pietro Alligo article, and other threads, so I can read this. I also must add, I have not seen the Roses & Lillies Deck, so I cannot make a comparison with that deck. Is there a high resolution copy I can view somewhere? Nor am I that familiar with early printing process - I need to read more ;).

:)
 

truelighth

Thanks Roppo, for your reaction. And for the additional information about printing dates. That also helps putting the time line together. I also think that Waite has little to do with the printing process or even the sale.

My theory on Pam-B is that Pam-As were sold out around 1914 and Rider planned to reprint the deck, but due to the war-shortage they couldn't procure the photo-litho-printing materials. So they printed Pam-B by lithograph only, lines being manually copied. Pam-Cs were modified version of B and the aim was to make B resemble to the images printed in the PKT (especially, the Sun). I'm making up the story from the price-down of the RWS pack in 1915.

This seems very plausible. Of course we have no actual proof, but it would fit the timeline. Another thing that occured to me, is that the C decks often appear in the blue slide-out boxes instead of the red boxes. I think that this also proves it is again a later edition. My blue slide-out box has stamps on it from 10 cents, which could indicate this deck was possibly sold in the US and those were tax stamps (the UK is using pennies, so it would not make sense that the stamps were from the UK).

I suppose Pam-Ds are photographic copies of Pam-A, and the printig date seems around 1933 (judging from the advertisements in The Occult Review)

I have one problem with this. It seems the first Pam-D decks were possibly printed earlier that that. Sometime ago there was a Pam-D deck on auction on Ebay that came in a box and with the Key. This is a first. But if the date is correct, then this deck would have been printed in 1920. I don't have the pictures anymore, but this is the link to the original auction:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150596606563&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

I know at the time I identified it for sure as a Pam-D and send this information to Frank, who also confirmed it. But then, the date probably comes from the book. Would it be possible that the booklet would be printed much earlier?

Questions, questions...
 

truelighth

Bravo, Truelighth!

Thank you for laying this out for everyone.
It appears to be sound reasoning that is best supported by the known facts.

Thank you, OnePotato. And also for your post. It was your original post that provided me with the additional information to put it all together :D. You know a lot more about printing techniques and that really helps me. And again, you provide extra insights and information in your reaction that I much appreciate!


The Pam-D is almost certainly a photo repro of a Pam-A.
I would look at the tell-tale blemishes or quirks that photo repro would capture.
Off the top of my head, I'm guessing that by the time it was made, photo-litho technology had advanced from where it was in 1909, and made it feasible to make a good copy.
I would like to know if it is a photo of a printed Pam-A deck, or a photo of some kind of master print of the black plate, with newly created Benday screening/color plates.

Unfortunally I don't really know where to look for those. But it good to hear this would indeed be a possibility. The thought that the Pam-D is a photo repro of the Pam-A is the idea of Frank and so far, I have adopted that theory as there is no other yet. What I do know of my Pam-D is that the quality is bad, compared to the other decks. The colours bleed out of the lines. Which indicated that during the printing process they were not very precise with aligning the plates.


Either way, it is very interesting to note that they went back to the Pam-A, rather than use the Pam-B or Pam-C as the source..

My thought on going back to the Pam-A as the source, is that most probably they didn't have the plates of the B/C anymore.



PCS writes in her letter to Stieglitz, November 19, 1909, that:
"...I've just finished a big job for very little cash! A set of designs for a pack of _Tarot_ cards. 80 designs. I shall send some over - the original drawings - as some people _may_ like them! - I will send you a pack (printed in color by lithography) - (_probably_ very badly!) as soon as they are ready - by Dec 1 - I think."

She has the original drawings, and is sending them on consignment for sale.
This means that when it is time to do a reprint years later, Rider will no longer have access to her original drawings. They will be forced to use the copyist's art from the original printing, or a sample printed deck, and thus we have Pam-B and Pam-C..

Also, she has not seen the final printed result yet.
She specifies that she will send a printed copy of the deck, clearly apart from the original art. When she adds that it will _probably_ be printed very badly, I believe she is likely referring to the then-current lithography practice of having technicians do the color separations and add in the benday screens that interpret her color choices. She knows that despite the expertise of the print technicians and copyists, no hand copy can live up to her original work, and is half-jokingly making an excuse for the result that is out of her hands, yet will carry her name.

This makes a lot of sense to me. It indeed explains why the Pam B and C are different. If Rider has no access and the copiers had to work from a deck, they may have missed a lot of the detail. Which is exactly what is happening in the Pam-B and Pam-C deck. The copiers may also have been more sloppy with their work. But I do know that if I look at the cards, I can miss things that do show up on the enlarged scans.

It would be great if one day, even just one of the originals would show up. Since they were send away to be sold on consignment, that is a possibility. One can only hope.


I'd like to see actual examples of all five versions together before I would state an opinion on whether Pam-A is a mechanical copy or hand copy of PCS's original drawings. I suspect it is a photo as Roppo has suggested, and that he is also quite right about Pam-B and Pam-C being hand copies. (And Pam-D is a photo-repro of Pam-A.)
\

Since there is unfortunally a big pond between us, it is not really possible for me to come around and show you the decks for to look at. But I would be willing to send you scans of all the decks if you'd like.

I am also thinking to actually put the scans online, just like Kenji did. But I need to figure out how to do that. It would make them accessible to the whole tarot community though.


I would also add that the cropping differences alone suggest almost beyond a reasonable doubt that the Rose & Lillies was done first.
In all likelihood, they wanted to widen the margins a touch to help better register the trim, so they cropped a tiny bit.
I also suspect they had problems registering the back margins with the front margins & the trim, which may have added incentive to switch to the full bleed of the crackleback, in addition to the need for better quality cardstock.

I agree. And thank you again for the information. It seems the most plausible.


Also, I believe the crackle back pattern was very possibly pre-printed by the paper supplier, thus speeding the production time of the deck. (It would be interesting to examine other decks of cards from other publishers of the time to see if any of them share the exact crackle design.).

This could very well be the case. However, there does exist one copy that has a Roses&Lilies background, but printed in brown. Maybe they planned on using brown from the start for the second edition. But when it didn't look right, they went to the pre-printed stock.


Again, thanks for your post and the extra information :)
 

truelighth

I am very intrigued with discussion, and I am only just very recently studying the card designs of these decks.
I have no theory, but just my observation at this very early point of my study on one of the cards you mention The Sun. Please excuse my ignorance as I am keen to read any observations by others on the comparisons of these decks and their printings. Maybe someone can point me to the Pietro Alligo article, and other threads, so I can read this. I also must add, I have not seen the Roses & Lillies Deck, so I cannot make a comparison with that deck. Is there a high resolution copy I can view somewhere? Nor am I that familiar with early printing process - I need to read more ;).

:)

Hi Elven,

You can read a lot more on the subject on the website of Frank Jensen. The article by Pietro Alligo is not on there, it is published in the 20 year anniversary book by Lo Scarabeo. But you can read the theories Pietro Alligo poses and Frank's opinion on those.

http://www.manteia-online.dk/frame-8-grey.htm

There is no high resolution copy of the Roses&Lilies deck online. I am thinking of maybe putting scans of my copy online. But as of yet, I haven't done that yet.

And it is interesting. The more you read, the more you follow, the more it draws you in :D }).
 

Elven

I thought this maybe helpful for the discussion.
Below I have cropped pictures I had of The Sun Pam ABC and made a comparison sheet of the things truelighth was talking about. I found it a bit hard to keep trying to look between photos of the cards to find what was being talked about - but I also scanned some other things I found interesting in the card.
I hope this furthers the discussion - I really appreciate the thread and the posts and the help - thankyou guys :)

There are some in the post below also
 

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Elven

There were others I found interesting :)
 

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kenji

I have one problem with this. It seems the first Pam-D decks were possibly printed earlier that that. Sometime ago there was a Pam-D deck on auction on Ebay that came in a box and with the Key. This is a first. But if the date is correct, then this deck would have been printed in 1920. I don't have the pictures anymore, but this is the link to the original auction:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150596606563&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

I know at the time I identified it for sure as a Pam-D and send this information to Frank, who also confirmed it. But then, the date probably comes from the book. Would it be possible that the booklet would be printed much earlier?

Questions, questions...

My Pam-D I won at eBay last year also came with a 1920 book. And interestingly, the red box in which the deck was housed has just the same dimensions of that of my Pam-A.

I remember roppo and I discussed in his house, examining the deck, whether D is the 2nd or the 4th of the "Pam Sisters":bugeyed:

BTW, what do you say to simplifying the grouping by sorting the 5 kinds into the two groups A and B? Like this:
Pam-A R&L = A-1, Pam-A = A-2, Pam-D = A-3 / Pam-B = B-1, Pam-C = B-2

Well, this thread makes me feel urged to do the dreadful task again about the D, as I did about the other three...(shivering, LOL)