Horary: planets in houses

Hi, could someone please help me with the following horary questions? Any help would be greatly appreciated!

1) In a relationship chart, how would you interpret it if person A sits at person B's 5th or 7th? For example, if A sits at B's 5th, ruled by B by triplicity and receives B by term. Does that show affection from A to B OR B sees A as someone they can or want to have an intimate relationship with? I wonder if it's more important to look at planets in houses or dignities/aspects between significators when drawing conclusion?

2) How would you interpret it if person A's significators sits on the cusp of person B's 12th (almost into B's 1st) when at the same time they're being ruled by B AND exalts B. 12th house often means secret enemy, so normally we'd say that A is doing something to harm B secretly. But in the case here, since A is ruled by B and exalts B, should we still conclude the same thing?

3) How much do you value separating aspects in a chart? I've seen yes/no questions ending up with a YES with positive separating aspects such as separating sextile or trines. I thought separating aspects usually means things have already passed so they won't occur again? Could someone please shed some light?

4) How can we properly interpret mixed aspects and dignities? For instance, A is ruled by B but yet B is in detriment of A...does that make sense to say that A likes B but probably doesn't like the fact that they like B?

5) I had my chart done professionally and the astrologer read the chart with 2 degrees of ascendant. Is that right? I thought 0-3 degrees of ascendant indicates situation being too immature to be read on?

6) If I read for myself, does it still matter if Saturn is in the 7th? Would that still be considered as a stricture?

Thanks so much for any input in advance

kittymumu said:

Hi, could someone please help me with the following horary questions? Any help would be greatly appreciated!

1) In a relationship chart, how would you interpret it if person A sits at person B's 5th or 7th? For example, if A sits at B's 5th, ruled by B by triplicity and receives B by term. Does that show affection from A to B OR B sees A as someone they can or want to have an intimate relationship with? I wonder if it's more important to look at planets in houses or dignities/aspects between significators when drawing conclusion?

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You need to be careful here. Which of them is the querent? If it is A, then the chart has to be viewed from primarily from A's perspective in which case A sits in the eleventh house of friends, hopes and aspirations.

A in the eleventh, ruled by B shows at least friendship but does not suggest that A loves B romantically or wants a romantic relationship with them. Evidence of that would be A in the her/his own fifth ruled by B. or in the seventh ruled by B.

Turning the chart should be done with care. It's not an automatic thing. What B's feelings for A are is immaterial, unless you have already established a positive romantic interest in B. Now if that positive romantic interest were shown in the question 'Does B love me or 'Has B any feelings for me?' then you might well look at B's feelings by turning the chart.

Without a clear expression of interest from A in a romantic relationship, if the chart doesn't show one then what B does or does not think is immaterial. Indeed you might even suspect that A's statement of interest is more speculative than serious if the chart does not mirror that interest from A.

So your steps are:

Does A have romantic feelings for B? If 'yes' then

Does B reciprocate those feelings? If 'yes' then

Is there any indication of them coming together - an aspect forming between their significators, etc.

kittymumu said:

2) How would you interpret it if person A's significators sits on the cusp of person B's 12th (almost into B's 1st) when at the same time they're being ruled by B AND exalts B. 12th house often means secret enemy, so normally we'd say that A is doing something to harm B secretly. But in the case here, since A is ruled by B and exalts B, should we still conclude the same thing?

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Technically the cusp of any house is the beginning of that house. So what you describe is a situation where A's signficator is in an applying conjunction to B's Ascendant. If the conjunction is within five degrees the convention since medieval times has been to treat it as being in the first.

The only reason for not doing this would be that the Ascendant is in a different sign to A's significator. If you are using whole sign houses, then A's significator would be in B's first house as long as it's in the same sign as the Ascendant. If it's in the preceding sign, then it is definitely twelfth house.

A word of warning (see above) If A is the querent then B doesn't have an 'Ascendant' B does have a house and it's the seventh. If A's significator is within 5 degrees of the Descendant, then treat it as being in the seventh.

kittymumu said:

3) How much do you value separating aspects in a chart? I've seen yes/no questions ending up with a YES with positive separating aspects such as separating sextile or trines. I thought separating aspects usually means things have already passed so they won't occur again? Could someone please shed some light?

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Without seeing the charts you refer to I can't comment on them however you are right that separating aspects relate to past events. In horary I would not predict a 'Yes' answer from a separating aspect. However I might predict a 'Yes' if there was mutual reception and ignore any separating aspect) I might also predict a 'Yes' answer if the significators are linked by antiscia.

But also bear in mind that many 'Yes' or 'No' questions are more dependent on the strength of the significators rather than whether there is an aspect or not. For examply 'Is she a good candidate for this job?' can be answered through essential and accidental dignity, there's no need for an aspect. But if the question is whether she will get the job, then the aspect is important. The same would be true about whether A loves B. An aspect is not relevant. 'Will A marry B?' requires some form of aspect, unless A and B are engaged and are about to get married. In that case the default answer is 'Yes' unless there's evidence in the chart to show that they won't - such as a square or opposition from a malefic.

kittymumu said:

4) How can we properly interpret mixed aspects and dignities? For instance, A is ruled by B but yet B is in detriment of A...does that make sense to say that A likes B but probably doesn't like the fact that they like B?

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I think the problem lies in using the word 'like'. If A is in a sign ruled by B, then in the original meaning of rulerships, B is the host of A and is supposed to do their best to help them. That B is in a place that A doesn't like or finds uncomfortable would not stop them from trying their best to be a good host - the extent to which they succeed would depend on the condition of B. If A were in it's own detriment then it would find the attempts of B to be unwelcome or uncomfortable - an analogy would be a host who played loud music when A was trying to get some sleep or gave A food that they hated.

kittymumu said:

5) I had my chart done professionally and the astrologer read the chart with 2 degrees of ascendant. Is that right? I thought 0-3 degrees of ascendant indicates situation being too immature to be read on?

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If by your chart you mean your natal chart then that is fine, the early degrees rising applies to horary not natal. Even with horary there may be exceptions, for example a question about a specific event that happened (or is planned to happen) with an early Ascendant.

Incidentally there may be reasons why it's not safe to read a natal chart with a two degree Ascendant. Those would relate to situations where you are not certain of your birth time and that certainty is enough to include the preceding sign or even earlier signs.

kittymumu said:

6) If I read for myself, does it still matter if Saturn is in the 7th? Would that still be considered as a stricture?

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Yes it would. As the Astrologer you still get the seventh for that specific role. So there is a strong indication that your judgement in the issue will be suspect.

Hi Minderwiz! Thanks so much for taking time to answer my questions

I tired to respond by using the quote function but I am really bad at it. So I will proceed with numbering

1) Actually B is the querent and A is the questied here. So having the questied sitting in the querent's 5th with receptions, will you say that there is romantic interest/affection from A to B then?

2) I also have B as the querent and A as the quesited. A's significator is entering B's 1st house within 2 degrees, but the thing is B's main significator is not located in her own 1st, what can we draw from such situation? Here's the chart: http://www.astro.com/cgi/showgif.cg....gif&res=63&va=&cid=h75file6txZU0-u1410118340

4) Again we have B as the querent and A as the quesited. So what does it mean if A is ruled by B, exalts B, BUT B's main significator is in detriment of A. In this case, we know that B likes A. My take would be that they both have strong feelings for each other but are not in a good place to pursue a relationship. Would you agree with that?

5) The chart I got done was an horary chart not a natal chart. I knew nothing about horary back then that's why didn't point out why it was read with a 2 degree ascendent.

6) I know having Saturn in the 7th would be a stricture if we get our horary charts read by another astrologer as that will cloud their judgments somehow. But many people think that a chart won't be unreadable having Saturn in the 7th if we are the astrologer oursleves. In that case having Saturn in the 1st will make the chart unreadable.

The chart expired before I could view it, so I can only go on your update. If you want a more certain answer post the time date and place of the chart. and I'll take a further look.

From your description:

If B is the querent an A's significator is 2 degrees from the Ascendant, then I'd take that as being A's significator in the first house, but only if it's still in the sign of the Ascendant. A's signficator would be in it's own detriment, but I think Frawley has it right when he identifies this as being an indication of vulerability because their love (being ruled by B's significator) carries the risk of rejection.

If B has asked the question and you are certain they fancy A, then it looks like their feelings are reciprocated.

If the quesited is sat in B's fifth house and B is again the querent. Then B likes A and would like a romantic relationship. whether anything will happen depends on aspect between the main significators (or the Moon and A's significator). You said that there was Reception. To have that, A and B will have to be in aspect and one of them in the other's sign (in this case A in B's sign) then there is a good chance of a romantic relationship.

However I can't confirm that as the right judgement without checking the charts. There are many things that could lead to the opposite view, such as one of the planets turning retrograde before the aspect is perfected or one of them aspecting a third planet before it aspects the other significator.

On the two degrees Ascendant. The chart would only be safe to read if you were quite young at the time.and your appearance matched the characteristics of the sign.

Saturn in the first or seventh and not a significator in the chart threatens error in judgement. Saturn in the first especially when retrograde indicates that the matter will seldom produce anything good. Saturn in the seventh indicates issues with the Astrologers judgement. These are not the same thing if you are both querent and Astrologer. Saturn in the first, indicates that you might well read the chart correctly but the matter will still not produce the desired outcome, or nowhere near to the extent that you had hoped.

Saturn in the seventh indicates that you will be likely make a mistake in reading the chart. So treat both of those as effective considerations. At least until you are fairly sure about recognising a radical chart when you see one.

If you want a more careful consideration of the A and B questions, then post the time, date and place, please don't post a chart as I need to create the chart to check a whole variety of things.

This is really helpful Minderwiz! Could you please explain what exactly does it mean by the love carries risk of rejection? Rejection from which side to which side?

And here's the time for the chart: oct 28th 2014, 12:18pm, location: new your city.

In this chart the querent is the woman and the questied is the man. So I believe the sig for the querent would be Saturn and Venus and for the questied would be Moon and Sun. Questied's ruler is in the 1st house and same sign of ascendant. His main ruler Moon is in a sign ruled by querent's main sig Saturn. And I think his co sig, Sun in Scorpio is ruled by querents co sig Venus since it's a day chart. It looks to me that this guy is quite into this woman. We know querent loves questied. There is a dexter sextile from moon to Saturn with a wide orb, does this aspect mean anything? Also just gained another piece of information, that the questied is querents therapist. So he can't have a romantic relationship with her as long as she's still a patient. I think this helps putting things in perspective here. (By the way, the 5th house issue is actually for a different chart).

Thanks for your insights again in advance!

kittymumu said:

This is really helpful Minderwiz! Could you please explain what exactly does it mean by the love carries risk of rejection? Rejection from which side to which side?

And here's the time for the chart: oct 28th 2014, 12:18pm, location: new your city.

In this chart the querent is the woman and the questied is the man. So I believe the sig for the querent would be Saturn and Venus and for the questied would be Moon and Sun. Questied's ruler is in the 1st house and same sign of ascendant. His main ruler Moon is in a sign ruled by querent's main sig Saturn. And I think his co sig, Sun in Scorpio is ruled by querents co sig Venus since it's a day chart. It looks to me that this guy is quite into this woman. We know querent loves questied. There is a dexter sextile from moon to Saturn with a wide orb, does this aspect mean anything? Also just gained another piece of information, that the questied is querents therapist. So he can't have a romantic relationship with her as long as she's still a patient. I think this helps putting things in perspective here. (By the way, the 5th house issue is actually for a different chart).

Thanks for your insights again in advance!

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Thanks for the chart details and the context. That really was very good information and helps in making a judgement.

Firstly to deal with your question about vulnerability and risking rejection. Any person who tries to initiate a relationship, by say asking the other person out on a date, risks rejection - they might have their invitation refused. And that goes for the vulnerability, rejection or refusal can be quite wounding to one's own self belief. We put ourselves in that vulnerable position in the hope of a 'Yes' answer and we may choose to risk the 'No' answer in so doing. Now that's almost certainly a description of reality if the querent's significator is in the seventh house and is ruled by the quesited's significator.

In this case, it might apply to the 'love interest' quesited but there's another possible interpretation. I do see the Moon as being first house here. So how does that make the quesited who is the querent's therapist vulnerable? He might return her feelings and be wanting to ask her for a date. But alternatively the very act of being her therapist puts him in a vulnerable position. It's a well known risk that a 'vulnerable' patient might project their needs onto their professional therapist.

Now the querent's significator is placed in the eleventh house of the chart. The querent seems to be more concerned with friendship or their own hopes ans aspriations, rather than marriage or a romantic relationship. I tend not to use Venus and the Sun unless there's reasonable evidence that the question is not 'idle speculation'. I wouldn't use the Sun and Venus as additional significators and in this case I wouldn't be convinced of that from what you've told me.

If the circumstances really do suggest that he is open to the idea of a relationship, then the approaching sextile between Sun and Moon in the first House and on the Ascendant would suggest that there is a very good chance of the relationship developing.

Thanks so much for the insights Minderwiz! They make a whole lot of sense and definitely help putting things in perspectives. It's interesting as at first I thought that the querent would be more keen in developing a romantic relationship as she's the one who asked the question. But the chart indicates that quesited is equally if not more interested in doing so.

I looked up meanings of 11th house and they include friendship, hope, help and wishes. While I know that the querent does have romantic feelings toward the questied I think these meanings of 11th also applies in this case. Because the querent constantly seeks advices and help from her therapist and that's also how her feelings for him developed.

You mentioned approaching sextile between Sun and Moon indicating possibility of a romantic relationship between them. But aren't the Sun and Moon both significators of the questied? Did you mean to say sextile between the Moon (questied) and Saturn (querent)?

kittymumu said:

You mentioned approaching sextile between Sun and Moon indicating possibility of a romantic relationship between them. But aren't the Sun and Moon both significators of the questied? Did you mean to say sextile between the Moon (questied) and Saturn (querent)?

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No I didn't and I got the significators wrong LOL. Though on reflection it might had been a possible answer as the Moon is a natural significator of a wife or woman and the Sun is a natural significator of men or a husband. However I wouldn't draw the conclusion that they would form a relationship from this chart, or at least a romantic one.

I do the same thing sometimes LOL I asked about sextile between moon and saturn (with wide orb) because I read from somewhere that certain readers believe sextile indicates possibilities and opportunities despite orb. But I think it makes sense to draw conclusion of no romantic relationship for this chart based on the current circumstance. Thanks again for shedding light

The aspect is only by sign, not by degree. That shows a link but its a weak link compared to a degree based aspect. The Moon originally had an orb of 13 degrees, being around its average daily movement. However the separation here is nearly twenty degrees.

Even if it was in orb, the sextile is the weakest of the major aspects and the one that is least likely to produce a perfection of the matter (unless supported by other factors, such as reception between the significators).

I think that is why some writers might identify it more with possibilities and opportunities because it's too weak to produce certainties except with support, rather than it leads in some special way to the desired outcome.

If the two planets were in orb, then there would be Reception in this case but they are not. Sign based aspects were not used by Lilly or other late Medieval or Seventeenth Century Astrologers and they have not been used since the late Hellenistic and early Medieval periods.

That doesn't mean they are not effective in the sense of producing an effect, they are but that effect wil very rarely produce a successful outcome - the only ones I can think of that would are those involving a mutual reception, for example Mercury in Taurus and Venus in Virgo.