A Walk in the Wood...cuts, the Marseilles

Thanks EE for the toupee metaphor. For some reason that really resonates for me.

And thanks starlightexp for starting this thread. I'm rather inspired as a result

Hello,

Moonbow* said:

The Fool evolved through Tarot from the down-and-out madman of the Minchiate and Visconti Sforza decks to the carefree happy chap we now see in modern decks, so studying these old decks gives a whole different impression and meaning for the card than what most Tarot readers are used to.

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It certainly gives an important and necessary perspective, but it leaves the possibility that there was an important and voluntary shift in the meaning of many images.

The Marseilles deck images appear to be a better slant on the character because of the process of woodcutting and block colouring which gives less freedom of expression than the artists had in the hand painted depictions of the Viscontis

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The technique can't be blamed for everything. Seeing details on the Vieville for instance, or early woodcut even from non tarot decks, or even woodcuts in general, you can tell that when it was needed, the artists had a very large amount of freedom in the expression. So we can't be definitely affirmative in saying that most of the differences were due to technical difficulties ; the idea that it was a conscient choice may still prevail.
The historical approach is certainly a must and broaden our vision of the cards, yet conclusions are to be taken with prudence.

The bare historical facts may be formulated as :
- the fools on painted decks were different than the fools on Marseille type decks,
- the technique used wasn't the same and may have induced certain differences - but not all differences are induced by the technique

For instance on Le Bateleur as it is called on Marseille decks, the "change" in position compared to the equivalent card (Bagatello ?) in the Visconti-Sforza deck can't be related to the technique used.

Yet the fool on Marseille decks certainly carries the idea of the madman as it was represented in the middle age (hat, ripped pants - flies are missing though) or at least references such representations. The fact that he may be a better slant is - in my opinion - in no way related to the woodcuting technique.

My two cents

Bertrand

This shift you mention came about due to the Golden Dawn and the decks that followed, not necessarily a 'voluntary' shift, more an opinion portrayed, then repeatedly copied.

Balme?! .....for the woodblock technigue has not been apportioned by me, but yourself, I merely mention the fact that the woodblock technique leaves less free expression than that of a painter, due to the constraints of the woodblock process, its a completely different process so I would not expect it to portray the same qualities. And, this is the Historical forum, therefore I would expect to see an historical approach to looking at this card here!

My bad Moonbow, I misread you message.

Moonbow* said:

This shift you mention came about due to the Golden Dawn and the decks that followed,

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The shift I had in mind - that made me misunderstand what you really write - was the shift from the Visconti type to the Marseille or french type decks - I'm definitely not concerned by GD influenced or XXth century decks.

As you mentionned the woodblocks, I read your message too fast, and conclude that you attributed the changes from italian decks to - let's say - XVIIth century french decks to the technical differences.

So yes I was speaking about historical facts, but in fact and contrary to what I thought nothing you spoke about before...

Sorry, about the confusion, using a language that is not my native tongue sometimes leads to that kind of errors on my part.
Hopefully I made it a bit clearer and cleared the confusion by the way !

Bertrand

EnriqueEnriquez said:

‘hitting the road’.

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I like the thought its one that hits home in my world. I can more see him as one of a person of the sum of his parts so to speak. So I know some of the writings on the deck give meaning to the colors am I reading to much into them?

starlightexp said:

So I know some of the writings on the deck give meaning to the colors am I reading to much into them?

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I'm not sure, but I have a gut feeling the colors are not as important as they are with the GD/Esoteric decks...

Anyone else?

I guess Nicky when you ask 'anyone else?' you are probably hoping for a response from someone who actually knows what they are talking about, as opposed to me, but I'll give it a shot anyway.

I don't think the colours are as important as in the modern decks only because there doesn't seem to be a lot of consistency between the different Marseille decks colour-wise. Wasn't the colour added after the printing? So, is there a 'standard' or are the decks all different? Also, with the recreated Marseille decks the colours are determined by the creator. So with the Hadar for example, Kris Hadar talks on his website about the significance of the different colours, which he specifically chose when he created the deck. This would be different I expect from some of the photo-reproduction decks where the colours may or may not be as significant. And then when you look at the Fournier with its colours there is another whole approach to looking at colour and the Marseille.

I know with what little I've done with the Marseille I've always looked primarily at the symbolism and not thought a lot about the colours. Doesn't mean I'm right of course.

Hi Starlightexp,

starlightexp said:

So I know some of the writings on the deck give meaning to the colors am I reading to much into them?

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Aren’t we all?

In my personal view, these cards weren’t too important, nor there was as much thought put in them as most people like to think. But of course, that is not a fun thing to say.

Best,


EE

sapienza said:

I guess Nicky when you ask 'anyone else?' you are probably hoping for a response from someone who actually knows what they are talking about, as opposed to me, but I'll give it a shot anyway.

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LOL! Join the club

EnriqueEnriquez said:

In my personal view, these cards weren’t too important, nor there was as much thought put in them as most people like to think.

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OMG. Ok for someone who actually teaches tarot I am truly a dolt! All those years of spewing tarot history and it never actually sunk into my brain what I was saying about these cards being a game really does mean these were not divinatory. ( Ok maybe in the same way people have used bones, clouds, and chicken guts but still...)

Which means *gasp* there is no system ...beyond one we find works for us personally. Wow.

I understand that everyone finds their own personal meanings over time with their decks but most of us began with a template of sorts.

I am looking at the shelves and shelves of esoterica (Uncle Al is cackling at me) and wonder... if the color, elemental, astrological, kaballistic, alchemical, etc etc are off the board...what now? Christian/Mythic iconography? Do people use these systems to understand the cards? Will I be up all night with Dante, Graves? Huson? Plato? Renaissance Art Books? Please not the Bible...?

How do you begin to arrange a system with TdM?

OY!

Interesting questions Nicky. I actually find these decks liberating for the fact that you don't have to fit into anyone else's system. I enjoy spending time with the Thoth but ultimately I end up frustrated as hell with things in the 'system' that just don't sit well with me. Here, I can develop something that works for me, that incorporates my own world-view, rather than fitting in with someone elses.

For me, I love astrology and so I factor that in to how I work with decks with non-scenic pips. Not in a Golden Dawn fashion though, I do it my own way. Add in a bit of numerology, and then I look at what I see in the arrangement of the objects on the cards. I also stir in a bit of Classical Mythology and then all that I've picked up reading about tarot history for the Majors. Slowly, it's all starting to come together for me. Very slowly.