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The Visconti - and the Marseilles

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Sophie  Sophie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Neon
As quoted on a filler card in the U.S. Games Visconti-Sforza Tarot deck

I guess that a deck whose Fool card has a precipice is the first tarot deck, hee-hee.

Caveat: I don't think that Kaplan was making a historical assertion.
That's very odd, because in the the Visconti-Sforza repro that's on this site, the fool is just a guy in rags with a staff over his shoulder http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards...za/index.shtml

I can't see a precipice, or a dog.
Top   #11
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Is there anyone apart from me who wants to answer Darla's question? Which is, if I rephrase it, and if I understood it correctly was:

"Why do those people who believe that the Tarot of Marseilles is the Ur-Tarot, believe this?"

(She was not asking about dates, nor which card came second or third, or whether they were intended for gaming purposes or not. There are dozens of threads and web-sites which speak of the History of the Cards. Darla's question has, I believe, never been posed on this forum.)

She wasn't asking either why people don't think it's the Ur-Tarot... Her question was very specific.
Top   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diana
"Why do those people who believe that the Tarot of Marseilles is the Ur-Tarot, believe this?"
Well, people who don't believe it is will not answer that question - but since we're a garrulous group of people, we'll post anyway

I've yet to see an answer to the question by those who do believe it.

For me - the jury is out. Ask me again in twenty years
Top   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Helvetica
That's very odd, because in the the Visconti-Sforza repro that's on this site, the fool is just a guy in rags with a staff over his shoulder http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards...za/index.shtml

I can't see a precipice, or a dog.
Methinks that Kaplan had the RWS Fool card (and any historical tarot deck that had a precipice in the Fool card) in mind, rather than Visconti or TdM. Remember this isn't a historical assertion on Kaplan's part; it's just poetry.
Top   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diana
Is there anyone apart from me who wants to answer Darla's question? Which is, if I rephrase it, and if I understood it correctly was:

"Why do those people who believe that the Tarot of Marseilles is the Ur-Tarot, believe this?"
I would very much like to hear your answer to this question. Are you waiting for someone else to go first? I do not have an answer, as I do not fit the criteria.

Felicity
Top   #15
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Here is the Aeclectic thread which seems to at least partly answer Darla's question:

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=20784
Top   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Neon
Methinks that Kaplan had the RWS Fool card (and any historical tarot deck that had a precipice in the Fool card) in mind, rather than Visconti or TdM. Remember this isn't a historical assertion on Kaplan's part; it's just poetry.
Aha, that explains why he didn't choose the image of a slightly older man in filthy rags having his backside (or his genitals, according to Noblet) bitten by a doglike cat. That would have stretched Stu's poetical genius a bit far
Top   #17
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First of all, thanks to Diana for opening this thread. I wish I could have replied earlier, but before Christmas time, College keeps me quite busy (well, actually always ).

Anyway, Diana understood my question really well. For clarification, here are a few quotes from various people from the thread "Why do people like the Tarot de Marseille" which got me thinking and brought me to my question:

"To many people, the Tarot of Marseille is the only "true Tarot" - what some would call the "Ur-Tarot", and I think therein lies the initial attraction for many of us."
"Speaking only for myself, I believe the other tarot decks do pale beside it, and that indeed, it is "the only one which embodies the Essence of The Tarot". (Rather than perhaps "the only one".)"
"I use the Tarot of Marseilles because it feels to me to be close to the essence of Tarot (with a capital T).... and I know that this view is difficult for people to hear. I don't believe there is "one true deck", but I do feel that through my studying and reading, the Tarot of Marseilles is close to the essence."
"I enjoy working with what I beleive to be the essence and root of Tarot, the Tarot of Marseilles."
"Surely you don't just love it because it is the Ur-tarot? (or maybe you do?)"

I was a bit confused, but also very curious because if I wanted to study the roots of Tarot, I would start with the oldest (to my very limited knowledge, that's the Visconti. Or at least the one that's accesible to us).
So my question is, why do you regard the Marseilles as the Ur-Tarot, as the one deck that embodies the essence of Tarot?
I hope I was able to clarify my question and I'm really looking forward to your opinions. But these quotes and the passion that people like Diana feel for the TdM made me so curious that I'm determined to study it.
Top   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diana
"Why do those people who believe that the Tarot of Marseilles is the Ur-Tarot, believe this?"
It is because of my direct experience of using the Tarot of Marseilles that I am starting to think of it as the Ur-Tarot.

I spent a long time making the decision to buy a Tarot of Marseilles deck. I was expecting it to be really hard work. I was expecting to have to read incomprehensible academic essays about numerology and history to even have a hope of reading with the deck. But, I like an intellectual challenge So I decided to go ahead and buy the Hadar deck because it had pretty colours.

I was kind of thinking too that it would add something to my tarot studies to be able to explore the history of it all. I thought the early decks would help me understand about the symbolism and imagery I'd become accoustomed to seeing on other decks.

So my deck arrived and I decided to do a quick 3 card "new deck spread" to find out a bit more about what I was letting myself in for, and it turned out to be the most amazing experience I'd ever had with tarot in all my 13 years of studying.

I can't describe it properly... I was literally shaking at the end of the reading. Not out of fear, (and not because it was cold outside or I had a fever either!) but out of, dare I say it, Awe. The thread I posted of that reading is still around somewhere, I've forgotten a lot of what I'd written at the time. But I think the most important thing that I learned is that I'd had it all wrong. The Tarot of Marseilles isn't about an intellectual challenge. Its about connecting to my heart and my humanity. And I don't have to work hard to speak its language. I'm already fluent. Somehow.

In the few days after that first reading I realised for the first time that there is a big difference between the Tarot and tarot cards........

Tarot cards are, I think, a physical representation of what Tarot is. They are a tool we use to access the Tarot. They aren't Tarot itself. I think they are kind of like the key to Tarot. I cannot put into words what I beleive Tarot is. I'm not even sure I know exactly, to be honest.

But when I began using the Tarot of Marseilles, I felt like I made a switch from reading with tarot cards, to acctually reading and accessing Tarot. I beleive that this switch happened for me because I was finnally using the right "key".

I describe the Tarot of Marseilles as the Essence of Tarot because I feel it to be the most accurate relection I have found of what Tarot is. The two things are like mirrors of each other..... As above, so below.

This is not a good explanation. Its acctually really difficult to explain in written words!! But the question is an important one, so I wanted to at least attempt an answer.
Top   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharmingPixie
In the few days after that first reading I realised for the first time that there is a big difference between the Tarot and tarot cards........
Perhaps it is simply because you connected with the Hadar Marseilles-style deck as a deck instead of with RWS decks that you worked with in the past and that it is not a question of the Tarot vs. tarot cards. Other people have had the same numinous experience with RWS or Thoth decks that you had with the Hadar.
Top   #20




 


 


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