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Marseilles Pips meanings?

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teheuti
If I understand you correctly, its neither desire nor the senses that are at fault - but what our ego 'thinks' they mean. It seems that we can make an equally valid argument against thinking/reason and knowledge/information.
. . . and . . .
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And neither should thinking be the ruler. It's not about one being inherently better or worse than another but how they function in particular circumstances.
Answering this involves going a bit deeper, so here goes. Look, the knower is not concerned with ‘information’ as you call it: information has to do with hearsay involving the present. The knower’s concern is with eternal things, for these are the only things that can be known, since all else is subject to termination, which makes shambles of all pretended ‘knowledge’ of things fleeting: we can only know the relationship between what is fleeting (circumstance) and what is eternal (us).

Now. The thinker is the middle term of the self, a sort of go-between between knower and doer, between the eternal and the utterly fleeting present instant: its concern is with things of finite duration. As go-between, it lends its capacity—just as knower and doer do once self is completely integrated—to the entire self, which means that the knower and doer ‘think’ as well. The knower ‘thinks’ passively as knowledge (of eternal truth) and actively as self-knowledge (stamping self’s existence on truth). The thinker thinks passively as rightness or conscience, a reaction to wrong thinking or action on the part of its doer, and actively as reason, which, unlike human ‘reasoning’, is logical (no fault there, since we want logic to be logical, though without emotion’s presence there would be no point to it, it would have no purpose). The doer, then, thinks passively as feeling and actively as desire, which are its attempt to grasp, respectively, what the present instant (in which it must act) arises from and leads to.

It is only in the thinking of the doer that one may find fault. And that fault is that it is trying to control the present from the point of view of the present, rather than from that of the eternal: it allows its third ‘mind’, the body-mind connecting it to the senses, to rule desire, rather than desire-tempered-by-reason ruling matter. This is the basic human problem sensed by Plato and the Gnostics. (Chapter 19 of Plato’s Republic explains that what is eternal [‘what exists or abides’] can be known, what has finite duration [‘what both abides and abides not’] can be at least opined about, but the fleeting present instant [‘what abides not’] must remain ever dark and impenetrable: ere one can even consider it, it vanishes, and for it to rule the psyche means darkness is on the throne [man, heal thyself].)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by venicebard
. . . and . . . Answering this involves going a bit deeper, so here goes.
Thank you for going here. I guess as a Neo-Pagan rather than a Gnostic, I find the argument to be exactly the sort of discussion that's made little sense to me. It's based on such subtle redefinitions of terms to the point that one has to be committed to that particular journey. However, I must add that Plato's contention:
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Chapter 19 of Plato’s Republic explains that what is eternal [‘what exists or abides’] can be known, what has finite duration [‘what both abides and abides not’] can be at least opined about, but the fleeting present instant [‘what abides not’] must remain ever dark and impenetrable . . .
which, as I understand it arises from Parmenides, which, when taken back to that source, can be seen in quite a different way as expounded upon by Peter Kingsley in his book _Reality_.

But we are getting off topic here. So, we'll just have to agree to maintain different perspectives.

Mary
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Originally Posted by venicebard
Interesting how you define these, Stella. Someone should point out, though, that the baton (this is true of polo sticks too, if one be any good at polo) is for directing the eye,
Here's Jodorowsky: "The Baton grows in a natural form, it is not manufactured. But it can be selected and peeled" (here I think he is saying that you can MAKE it into a "manufactured" thing, if you want) "..it represents the force of the nature that grows, the sexual and creative power. What we feel is not invented: the desire is a matter of attraction, a person we like or not. The sexuality is not an energy that is forged, but we can channel it, even sublimate it."

A baton could conceivably be used as a pointer in a classroom, yes. But there is so much more to it.
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fire’s sense, and fire’s proper station is the head, spirit’s seat in us.
The thing with elemental correspondences is that they change, from one reading system to another, from one magical system to another. There are many who would argue that a baton would be consumed by fire, but a blade is forged in fire, and that fire is more properly assigned to swords. If I am remembering correctly, Eliphas Levi used some very unconventional elemental correspondences. It's purely a matter of perspective and I have found it best not to become too hung on elemental correspondences when reading Tarot. That's for Waite and his salamander-encrusted King of Wands.

If you are curious, yes, Jodorowsky uses the conventional elemental correspondences. But he says "Su elemento podria ser al aire.", "Su elemento de referencia podria ser el agua.", etc. In other words, (and I hope I am translating correctly!) "it's element could be air", etc. - these are suggestions.

Look at Le Monde. There is your key to the whole deck. The lion is the Baton suit, the bull is the Coins, the angel is the Cup suit and the eagle is the Sword suit. The energy travels counterclockwise (eagle-angel-bull-lion-back to eagle) so in a way we are both right on that count, it is just that when you diagram it as energy centers on the human body you get something that looks linear that should actually be circular.
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It is just that fire or energy is of course present throughout,
Hearts on fire, fire in the belly, fire in the loins, and of course the good old hotfoot, lol....
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and it is in the loins that it manifests most concretely—which is natural, since fire is the whole (everything is made of energy, even mass), and the loins, one’s contact with earth when seated meditating, is the level of earthiness or concreteness in the whole (which is man writ large, upright sentience being the door between inner and outer horizons necessary for their interaction, and I know inner horizons exist cuz I gots one).
Well put! I would say we gots at least one.
But let's not forget the little coiled Kundalini serpent and the place he calls home when he is not travelling up the spine.

The angel has a halo, as does the eagle and the lion. Only the bull has no halo, he is concerned purely with the material. At the level of the loins, the lion, the energy has begun it's ascension, even though it is "below" the belly energy.
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There is a very clear correspondence, by the way, between the four elements and the four regions of the torso. For if you note the relation between body and horizon when seated meditating, fire’s sense, sight, is what links us to the horizon without, which is at eye level on the sphere of surroundings (centered atop the head and resting where one rests), whereas what approaches within earshot, air’s sense, represents the thirty-degree angle descending on down from that horizon to end at half its height: so far, fire is at the level of the head, air at the level of the thoracic cavity (descending to diaphragm). Thirty-degrees out from straight down, which is the next sign after what approaches within earshot, is where is placed that which is within reach, which can thus be tasted (provided we reach out to convey it to the lips), this being water’s sense (things must be in solution to be tasted), while straight down is our point of surface contact with earth. And earth’s sense is surface contact or touch, of which smell is simply the most focused aspect (sensing surfaces of individual molecules). Thus we can complete the picture by placing earth at the pelvis, and water just above this, at the abdomen, which means the elements descending from head to loins are in their natural order: fire-air-water-earth (brightness-thinness-and-motion, darkness-thinness-and-motion, darkness-thickness-and-motion, darkness-thickness-and-rest).
All very good information, but it is built on the assumption that elemental correspondences are crucial to reading this deck, and they are not.

Let's go back to Le Monde and the suits. If you have Coins-Bull-Taurus-Earth and Batons-Lion-Leo-Fire, doesn't it follow that the angel should be Aquarius and Cups should be Air, and that the eagle is a higher emanation of Scorpio and therefore Swords should be water? And doesn't that just kind of throw everything OFF?

That may be why, on the upper portion of the card, you have an angel and not a water bearer, an eagle and not a scorpion. They may be telling you not to take this correspondence thing too literally.
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Just so, the baton or staff (or polo stick) directs the eye, the clash of swords the ear,
I see Swords as intellect. We are fencing now, are we not? The Batons are peasant instruments, anyone can pick up a stick. It's the great equalizer, on many, many levels. Swords are more refined.
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the cup the tongue, and money the production of the solid and tangible. Knowledge, within, is at the same level as fire, without, a level usurped by desire in fallen Adam (us).
Hmmm, you've bolded "fallen" - are you using it in the sense of "descended into matter/time-space/duality"?
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Thinking, within, is at the same level as air, without,
Swords. Lol, sorry, couldn't resist.
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and follows the swing of breathing (and in the righteous, the dictates of conscience, which resides in the heart), this level being usurped by feeling in man. Emotion, the doer’s proper contribution to things, is like hunger or thirst, a belly-driven thing,
The belly crushes and digests, it is the will to power, the material arena. Bellies have to be fed. The heart is at a higher level and is capable of selflessness.
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while the sensual and tactile itself has its focus in or about the loins, the place of physical conjoining.
Creation and procreation. Batons.
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Are these things not so?
They are true of the part of the elephant that you have touched, I am touching another part. I don't know that anyone has touched the whole elephant, as of this writing.
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I wonder


Quote:
Originally Posted by stella01904
They are true of the part of the elephant that you have touched, I am touching another part. I don't know that anyone has touched the whole elephant, as of this writing.
hehe... which tiny bit is this at my fingertip
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Originally Posted by Esee
hehe... which tiny bit is this at my fingertip
Uh-oh....

Just kidding, lol.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stella01904
Here's Jodorowsky: [i]"The Baton grows in a natural form, it is not manufactured.
Precisely: it is nature as yet unworked (even if its branches have been lopped off in preparation for the work). And yes, fire is certainly sexual force, as he goes on to say, but fully understood, fire begins as creative power in the head—that is, extending up Adam’s entire height—but falls or has fallen to just the region of the loins and become procreative in nature (this being the Fall itself, mortality’s origin), while mankind further misappropriates it in pursuit of momentary gratification (suffering’s origin, Cain’s sin perhaps). But fire in essence is all-pervading energy, the ‘first matter’ or universal solvent (as suggested by the mass-energy ‘equivalence’ on which Einstein and I agree, though we differ as to its origin).
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A baton could conceivably be used as a pointer in a classroom, yes. But there is so much more to it.
LeBateleur uses one to conduct his crowd like an orchestra, and when burnt, of course, it becomes a fire to light the eye so directed. Even when used as ‘musical’ instrument, its drumming mainly represents the time-element or spirit underlying notes, not the notes or tones themselves (though when playing electric bass I used to jam in the key to which the conga drums were tuned, till the keyboard finished setting up and imposed his own, while timpani, the marimba, and the xylophone used when skeletons do the dancing are exceptions that use sticks, congas being played with the hand).
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The thing with elemental correspondences is that they change, from one reading system to another, from one magical system to another.
Hmm. Where's the reliability in that?
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There are many who would argue that a baton would be consumed by fire, but a blade is forged in fire, and that fire is more properly assigned to swords.
This I strongly take issue with. It is clear that it is the wood of staff or club or stick that is burnt to make fire, while metalic sword, cup, and coin are what has been worked in the fire to produce the three element-symbols that have to be metal in order to make it past fire to their stations at air-water-earth, since fire is first (the universal solvent).
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It's purely a matter of perspective[,] and I have found it best not to become too hung on elemental correspondences when reading Tarot.
I-ching is powerful because it is fixed in change, a rock in the stream, showing by its ripples the nature of what streams past.
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If you are curious, yes, Jodorowsky uses the conventional elemental correspondences. But he says "Su elemento podria ser al aire.", "Su elemento de referencia podria ser el agua.", etc. In other words, (and I hope I am translating correctly!) "it's element could be air", etc. - these are suggestions.
Sounds to me like an admission of poor understanding, or the wishiwashiness of the politician: does not Cups’ attribution, at least, remain fixed? Clubs unite, as does fire’s forge, energy being the universal solvent (1st element, from-through-and-in which the other three are made). Swords divide, as does the appearance of the 2nd element, air, and the words with which we distinguish ourselves from others by expressing our distinct opinions. Cups then unite or make peace between what has been thus divided (the Knight of Cups or Grail Knight is obviously offering a cup in lieu of combat), as does the 3rd element, water or form itself (law, the Torah). Money, then, builds form out into earthly physical existence, since prosperity can occur only once there is peace, since this is what allows trade.
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Look at Le Monde. There is your key to the whole deck. The lion is the Baton suit, the bull is the Coins, the angel is the Cup suit[,] and the eagle is the Sword suit.
(Just teasing with the commas, by the way.) This shows the limitation when only going by astrology's way of assigning elements to triads. For there are three ways in all. (1) The primordial elements themselves (on which Jewish tradition surrounding the 6-pointed star is based, corresponding to Zohar’s placing fire north, air east, water south, earth west) are these: fire, whose flame points up towards aries, water, which travels down towards libra, air (wind in one’s face), which when moving forward blows back towards capricorn, and earthly body facing forward, towards cancer. (2) Then there is the ritual diurnal, or terrestrial, method, based on up’s being on average north, in humans: this shows fire’s creative power in the place where it became confined after the Fall, at libra the loins or down—south’s heat of day—which displaces water west to cancer, where the round itself descends—west’s cooling sunset—which in turn displaces earth up, to aries—north’s cold night—but leaves air at capricorn, where the round itself ascends—east’s warming sunrise. (3) The astrological, then, is a ‘countermeasure’ to this last, a mechanism by which pressure is exerted upon man to return the creative force to the head (in Gnostic terms, free the Light enslaved in matter) and thereby learn, undoing the damage done by the Fall, this being the Great Work or opus—alchemy’s goal—of which the Marseilles tarot provides the only complete and utterly reliable map, forged as it was in the Hermetic fold.
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The energy travels counterclockwise (eagle-angel-bull-lion-back to eagle) so in a way we are both right on that count, it is just that when you diagram it as energy centers on the human body you get something that looks linear that should actually be circular.
Are you aware that a tradition in Lurianic Kabbalah stresses this very dichotomy between the straight and the curved? It contrasts the curved hollow of the tzimtzum—retraction of Deity’s omnipresence to allow existence of something ‘other than’ Deity, something distinct within Unity—and the straight uprightness of Adam Qadmon, the primordial upright Being in relation to whom the Sefirot first appear or logically originate. As for the four creatures in XXI LeMonde, they are oriented such that their zodiac is turned sideways, aries pointing to the left, this being where the aries of a fire unit points on the Great Clock, namely (where earth's triad erupts in) cancer or manifested fire, the gate into manifestation, out being the direction apprehended by sight, fire’s sense . . . but that’s another story (concerning Hebrew teyt’s correspondence to bardic fire breath AA, meaning the palm o phoenix fame, whose trump this is).
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Well put! I would say we gots at least one [inner horizon].
But let's not forget the little coiled Kundalini serpent and the place he calls home when he is not travelling up the spine.
You mean the creative power (Light) held captive (from a Gnostic perspective) in procreative force, as represented by autumn’s (libra-and-scorpio’s) vine- and ivy-months in the Irish bethluisnion tree-alphabet? Liberate this from ‘matter’ and it rises automatically, seeking its original home where it took in the whole being, rather than just the loins.
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Only the bull has no halo, he is concerned purely with the material.
I would say, rather, it is because he stands near the beginning of the process (which begins at aries) and is thus not yet refined. He is only earth astrologically, while both primordially and terrestrially he is most definitely air: coming after aries or up—pure active uprightness or fire—taurus is the direction up and a bit out (the throat or neck), more actively upright than passively horizontal and thus the source of the triad of the second element, air. For the elements’ logical origin is as pure activity or fire (straight up), more-active-than-passive air (more up than out), more-passive-than-active water (more out than up), and pure passivity or earth (straight out before us), the quintessence being the remaining state of balanced yin-and-yang, that is, the soul or what unites all four elements into a single upright form, not to be confused with the conscious self that inhabits said form.
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At the level of the loins, the lion, the energy has begun it's ascension, even though it is "below" the belly energy.
You have the zodiac placed on its belly, as they do when assigning houses in astrology. The root symbolism, though, runs deeper and is based on application of the round to the human torso. And leo in this context represents the organ of the heart, loins being libra, the direction down or opposite aries the head. Astrology’s physiological attributions have gotten a little warped over time, but the original version can be recovered by visualizing the wheel of the torso and knowing that aries is the ram because rams butt heads, that taurus is the bull (elk in Nordic tradition) because bulls (and elks) have prominent necks, that gemini is the twins because it represents the shoulders, that cancer is the crab because it walks or points sideways relative to the beginning or aries, and thus when we get to leo we realize that it is more central to well-being that the heart be like a lion than that the loins have the lion’s ability to spring, though the latter is indeed a useful quality.
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All very good information, but it is built on the assumption that elemental correspondences are crucial to reading this deck, and they are not.
Then why are we discussing it? I should think knowledge of the suits’ elemental correspondence would not harm readings but rather make them more accurate, through closer alignment of one’s imagination to the cards themselves. But heh, stream-of-consciousness is okay too.
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Let's go back to Le Monde and the suits. If you have Coins-Bull-Taurus-Earth and Batons-Lion-Leo-Fire, doesn't it follow that the angel should be Aquarius and Cups should be Air, . . .
The water-carrier or water-pourer is rain’s source, air, astrologically, but its triad fundamentally represents a cup to contain liquid, being the triangle pointing down, which Jewish tradition concerning the Star of David identifies with water and with Torah, which also flows ‘down from above’.
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. . . and that the eagle is a higher emanation of Scorpio and therefore Swords should be water?
Eagle is the liberated essence of earth—standing for its quintessence—which in unliberated form is symbolized by the serpent that crawls on earth, whose form however is reminiscent of waves on water, suggesting the astrological-terrestrial element of this triad. The scorpion symbol merely identifies scorpio as the point where the zodiac begins its climb back up the spine to the head, in imitation of its stinger, at least in primordial Adam, whose closed or circular zodiac has become broken-and-extended down the legs to the feet though the closed version is still accessible to us when seated in meditation, legs folded beneath us like square-Hebrew teyt, the original libra before letters’ calendar-order was carefully jumbled in making the alef-bet (teyt’s trump by bardic numbering being XXI LeMonde).
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I see Swords as intellect. We are fencing now, are we not?
Yes. Air is the realm of thoughts and thinking.
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The Batons are peasant instruments, anyone can pick up a stick. It's the great equalizer, on many, many levels.
Yes, the universal solvent.
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Swords are more refined.
Yes, refined in the fire of burning batons.
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The belly crushes and digests, it is the will to power, . . .
It suggests desire, which fully expressed is power.
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Bellies have to be fed.
Desire in man is a slave to sensation. But better to feed the belly what it (the body) needs, rather than whatever the palate craves, food-science aiding us in discarding cravings that do not represent special needs of the moment (as when a horse chews its stall). [Edited to make clear that a horse chewing its stall is an example of a craving that does represent the special need of the moment.]
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Quote:
Originally Posted by venicebard
Precisely: it is nature as yet unworked (even if its branches have been lopped off in preparation for the work). And yes, fire is certainly sexual force, as he goes on to say, but fully understood, fire begins as creative power in the head—that is, extending up Adam’s entire height—but falls or has fallen to just the region of the loins and become procreative in nature (this being the Fall itself, mortality’s origin), while mankind further misappropriates it in pursuit of momentary gratification (suffering’s origin, Cain’s sin perhaps). But fire in essence is all-pervading energy, the ‘first matter’ or universal solvent (as suggested by the mass-energy ‘equivalence’ on which Einstein and I agree, though we differ as to its origin).
Interesting, but you seem to be imposing much unnecessary complication.

Batons can be convoluted into a correspondence with anything one likes, as can anything else. But the simple explanation is usually the correct one, if indeed "correct" exists. It is certainly the most practical and effective.

You seem to place a lot of emphasis on things being "fallen." But the philosophy of the Tarot is Gnostic-flavored: "The Kingdom of Heaven is all around, but men do not see it." Which Joseph Campbell called "pure Buddhism."

Hence, no "fall." Which is likely one of the reasons why there have been sermons against cards beginning around Dante's time.
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LeBateleur uses one to conduct his crowd like an orchestra, and when burnt, of course, it becomes a fire to light the eye so directed.
I don't see any evidence that he is going to burn it. I rather think he is going to pack it up when he is done, and use it again.
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Hmm. Where's the reliability in that?
There isn't any. Which is why a person should not become overly-reliant on correspondences.
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This I strongly take issue with. It is clear that it is the wood of staff or club or stick that is burnt to make fire, while metalic sword, cup, and coin are what has been worked in the fire to produce the three element-symbols that have to be metal in order to make it past fire to their stations at air-water-earth, since fire is first (the universal solvent).
Back to Campbell, I belive he refers to that kind of thing as being "stuck in the metaphor".
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Sounds to me like an admission of poor understanding, or the wishiwashiness of the politician: does not Cups’ attribution, at least, remain fixed?
Have you read the book?
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Clubs unite, as does fire’s forge, energy being the universal solvent (1st element, from-through-and-in which the other three are made). Swords divide, as does the appearance of the 2nd element, air, and the words with which we distinguish ourselves from others by expressing our distinct opinions. Cups then unite or make peace between what has been thus divided (the Knight of Cups or Grail Knight is obviously offering a cup in lieu of combat), as does the 3rd element, water or form itself (law, the Torah). Money, then, builds form out into earthly physical existence, since prosperity can occur only once there is peace, since this is what allows trade.
Kind of reminds you of the counterclockwise circulation on Le Monde, doesn't it?
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(Just teasing with the commas, by the way.)
Not a problem. I don't have any particular yen to sidetrack this into a snarky discussion of where commas do, or don't go. [quote] This shows the limitation when only going by astrology's way of assigning elements to triads. For there are three ways in all. (1) The primordial elements themselves (on which Jewish tradition surrounding the 6-pointed star is based, corresponding to Zohar’s placing fire north, air east, water south, earth west) are these: fire, whose flame points up towards aries, water, which travels down towards libra, air (wind in one’s face), which when moving forward blows back towards capricorn, and earthly body facing forward, towards cancer. (2) Then there is the ritual diurnal, or terrestrial, method, based on up’s being on average north, in humans: this shows fire’s creative power in the place where it became confined after the Fall, at libra the loins or down—south’s heat of day—which displaces water west to cancer, where the round itself descends—west’s cooling sunset—which in turn displaces earth up, to aries—north’s cold night—but leaves air at capricorn, where the round itself ascends—east’s warming sunrise. (3) The astrological, then, is a ‘countermeasure’ to this last, a mechanism by which pressure is exerted upon man to return the creative force to the head (in Gnostic terms, free the Light enslaved in matter) and thereby learn, undoing the damage done by the Fall, this being the Great Work or opus—alchemy’s goal—of which the Marseilles tarot provides the only complete and utterly reliable map, forged as it was in the Hermetic fold.[quote]
The "complete and utterly reliable map" is simply saying that "the fall" is illusion.
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Are you aware that a tradition in Lurianic Kabbalah stresses this very dichotomy between the straight and the curved? It contrasts the curved hollow of the tzimtzum—retraction of Deity’s omnipresence to allow existence of something ‘other than’ Deity, something distinct within Unity—and the straight uprightness of Adam Qadmon, the primordial upright Being in relation to whom the Sefirot first appear or logically originate.
I think of it more like this: As Black Elk said, "Everything tries to be round." The nature of everything IS round. Stephen Hawking has even said that time is spherical and asking what is before the beginning of time is like asking what is north of the north pole.

I like the uncluttered, if you haven't noticed.

Not sure about your "other than Diety" though. By all accounts, "other" is illusion. We are not separate, at least form the Diety's point of view.
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You mean the creative power (Light) held captive (from a Gnostic perspective)
Not so much "held captive" as not properly perceived.

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You have the zodiac placed on its belly, as they do when assigning houses in astrology. The root symbolism, though, runs deeper and is based on application of the round to the human torso. And leo in this context represents the organ of the heart, loins being libra, the direction down or opposite aries the head. Astrology’s physiological attributions have gotten a little warped over time, but the original version can be recovered by visualizing the wheel of the torso and knowing that aries is the ram because rams butt heads, that taurus is the bull (elk in Nordic tradition) because bulls (and elks) have prominent necks, that gemini is the twins because it represents the shoulders, that cancer is the crab because it walks or points sideways relative to the beginning or aries, and thus when we get to leo we realize that it is more central to well-being that the heart be like a lion than that the loins have the lion’s ability to spring, though the latter is indeed a useful quality.
Very sensible astrologically, but not so good for card reading since it takes the heart association away from the Coupe suit.

The deck will fit together and balance very nicely if you let it. But you have to remember that it is a thing in itself.

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Then why are we discussing it?
Because it's interesting, the different ways that people have assigned elemental correspondences over the years.
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I should think knowledge of the suits’ elemental correspondence would not harm readings but rather make them more accurate, through closer alignment of one’s imagination to the cards themselves. But heh, stream-of-consciousness is okay too.
Even completely without elemental correspondences, there is plenty to go on other than stream-of-consciousness.
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Yes, the universal solvent.Yes, refined in the fire of burning batons. It suggests desire, which fully expressed is power.Desire in man is a slave to sensation.
As Jodo said, it is capable of being sublimated. The Baton suit simply suggests sexual or creative energy, one would look at the number, the details, and the neighboring cards cards to see what was being done with it.
Quote:
But better to feed the belly what it (the body) needs, rather than whatever the palate craves, food-science aiding us in discarding cravings that do not represent special needs of the moment (as when a horse chews its stall). [Edited to make clear that a horse chewing its stall is an example of a craving that does represent the special need of the moment.]
For the Coins it would be the same way. Ill-aspected Coins may well be a horse chewing his stall. Though it is not beneficial to obsess overmuch about what one should or should not eat, or embrace the science du jour. Remember Crisco was once thought to be healthier than animal fat.
Top   #37
Fulgour's Avatar
Fulgour  Fulgour is offline
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Fulgour 
Thanks Stella!


Quote:
Originally Posted by stella01904
Ill-aspected Coins may well be a horse chewing his stall.
I know I'm a better Tarot Reader for having once trekked
the barnyard in my work boots...happily and fearlessly!
Top   #38
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Queen of Pentacle  Queen of Pentacle is offline
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Join Date: 29 Nov 2005
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Queen of Pentacle 

A little tip If i may.
I began tarot with Marseilles, ages ago (I was 13...) but the pips always turned me off, until I discovered the Manly Hall method.
It is a very easy way to to use (and especially to remeber) them, certainly not as advanced as many ot this tread participant are, but I ever you want to give a try, you may give a look.
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=71572

Take care
Top   #39
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Teheuti 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Queen of Pentacle
As noted in the discussion at this link, this is actually from Papus' Tarot of the Bohemians. I also discuss it in some depth in my book _Tarot Mirrors_

Mary
Top   #40




 


 


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