Atu XV

Why is the devil the Saviour?? The logic cannot convince me.....I do not disagree that it is the most masculine of all masculinity in the Taro...but....I read the "Understanding"'s explanation...I not even half convinced....I m not blindly adhereing to Christianity yet ...it seems to me he somehow without much reasoning rejects that Devil is "bad" ....He, by attributing negative meanings to the other Atus' , in attempt to make it appear absurd that Devil must be negative, do not make the Devil more positive ! ....

I dont want this to become another "Christianity Mythic" debate.....but i want to know how the Thoth's Devil rational and the WHOLE deal behind it.....rather than some...since-other-major-would-be-wrong-if-they-are-all-bad-so-the-devil-not-neccesialiry-bad nonesense!

The Devil, in this system of philosophy, is seen as liberating, for the individual and the advancement of the individual and the personal genius we all possess. The past Aeon and religion is seen as somewhat suffocating and supressing of the individual, it was for the mass, the state and the leaders, not for the advantage of the individual spirit in the temporal life. Energies which caused people to become liberated from oppressors have always been seen as bad and evil, by the oppresors. And , of course, seen as good by the people oppressed. Also the Thoth Devil is Pan, the god of nature, this is a liberating force in the same way. Remove man from nature and you will oppress his potential, understanding, power and health.

I dont know what you mean about the others Atu's being negative to make the devil look good, sorry, never head of it, observed it, read it .... ???

thanks for the reply....i was refering to the DuQuette's reasoning...when he discusses the devil trump...

I just think that...maybe Devil is not so good of a description of the trump....because....there is no..."saint" or "God" card that balances out the Devil....so it probably does not represention the conventional "Devil" as in Satan...

Are you talking about the last paragraph on page 139? That is a direct quote from Crowley's The Wake World.

-fof

Yes. and when I was referring to the reasoning, I was refering to DuQuette's on the previous page near the top when he attributes something negative to each other trumps so as to show the devil isnt neccessarily bad....that specific reasoning he used was a bit disappointing...

I think DuQuette was pointing out that each of the other trumps possess both positive and negative qualities. So why would one card The Devil be only negative, it wouldn't. So this trump like all the others posses positive and negative energies. I really can't dislike this card to much as I am a Capricorn. Not to mention the art work is awesome.

I like the card too..the goat is special...ya..the card is definately not 100% negative thats for certain....i acknowledge DuQuette's point but it just was not that convincing for me....the way he put it...

I think i have come to the conculsion that such a card I will not treat it as the conventional devil....the RW devil looks more of a conventional devil....but I will read the Thoth devil as a kind of message....hopefully the meanings will develop as I practice more readings

That seems like a pretty good way to look at it Cosmotaroist. It's all about learning and personal growth, time and experience help build wisdom with this deck for sure.

Cosmotaroist said:

thanks for the reply....i was refering to the DuQuette's reasoning...when he discusses the devil trump...

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I really should read this book, people keep refering to it .. I guess I will just have to get over my stuff about Lom.

Cosmotaroist said:

I just think that...maybe Devil is not so good of a description of the trump....because....there is no..."saint" or "God" card that balances out the Devil....so it probably does not represention the conventional "Devil" as in Satan...

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There is no devil and there is no god ... but man.

Cosmotaroist said:

...

I think i have come to the conculsion that such a card I will not treat it as the conventional devil....the RW devil looks more of a conventional devil....but I will read the Thoth devil as a kind of message....hopefully the meanings will develop as I practice more readings

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Sensible way to work with Thoth XV and RW XV. There is an interesting book, Banzhof's Tarot As Your Companion, that considers Thoth and RW cards side by side. Banzhof sees the RW devil as taking away our freedom, while the Thoth devil "forces us to perceive some of the unloved shadow sides within us." I think the RW devil is all about addiction and obsession, while the Thoth devil is all about accepting our bodily, instinctual, natural side, without self-hatred or repression. Together, they seem to say,"Don't get caught up in addiction or repression." Not as easy as it might first appear. We all have our work of transformation having to do with both devils.