Tarot and Black Death

Amuletts are amuletts, playing cards are playing cards, and Nothelfer are NOT Trionfi cards.

And these motifs are NOT very similar to the 14 Bembo cards - or my spectacles are a little unclear today.

The mere coincidence of the number 14 doesn't make them similar - that's against any logic.
German decks - as far it is known - hadn't any tendency towards 14 cards per suit, at least we don't know any example.
The Pierpont-Morgan-Bergamo-Tarocchi had 14 trumps very likely according to the condition, that in Italia the 4x14-system already had developed, which is given with the note from San Bernardino 1423.
It's true, that there is reason to assume, that German playing card production (and creativity) influenced Italian persons, probably with the Karnoeffel game, which likely did lead to the the production of Imperatori decks. It's true, that playing card producers also produced pictures of Saints.
But it is simply not true, that the known Nothelfer pictures are really similar to the Bembo cards and there is also no really logical reason, why they should do so. Nothelfers were not spread in Italy.
The possibility, that Nothelfer decks existed, is not neglected. It's a possibility and one can't exclude it. In the same manner 12-apostles + Jesus might have existed. Or other compositions. But neither the 12 apostles or the 14 nothelfers are near to the 14 Bembo cards.

To add to the arguments that card-producers, wood-cutters, and card-sellers, who produced cards and figures of the saints at the same time, where probably able to produce also a set of "some" pre-Tarot-cards (not necessarily pre-Bembo, not necessarily 14, but some pre-Tarot series of combinations of Black-Death related objects including standard figures like the angelic virtues; I am not dogmatic here...), I refer to a quote from roppo from www7.ocn.ne.jp/~elfindog/Enotg1.htm:

"My guess is as follows -- the combination of three Angels and three Virtues became a convention among the ivory-carvers and enamel-makers of the Meuse area of 11th century: and woodcutters and the engravers of later periods inherited the convention, which they utilized in making cheap religious cuts and prints. After the introduction of the playing cards into Europe, a new type of card game named "taro" or "tarocchi" was invented. The game required fourteen or more trumps and the woodcutter-turned-cardmakers of the Meuse area did not hesitate in converting religious prints into a gaming device. And the procedure was easy enough, because the playing cards and religious cuts were often made by same craftmen in same places. These materials were objects of "Magistracy of Venice, 1441". The Italian cardmakers utilized the some of the Muese images such as Tower and Devil(1), but for the Cardinal Virtues they preferred the philosophical presentation to the angelic ones because it was the Renaissance day."

That there have been card games that arose out of such constellations like saints or apostles or similar religious pictorial series is documented by the Rosselli-games of the workshop of Francesco Rosselli that lists plates for printing of otherwise unknown games like:

* giuocho del trionfo del petrarcha in 3 pezi (the game of the triumph of Petrarch)

* giuco d’apostoli chol nostro singnore, in sette pezi, di lengno (the game of Apostles with our Lord)

*giuocho di sete virtu, in 3 pezi, di lengno (the game of seven virtues)

* gioucho di pianeti cho loro fregi, in 4 pezi (the game of planets with their borders)

So, I think, it is not out of sight to imagine some card-maker producing card-series of saints as amulets and talismans and also a kind of pre-Tarot card series for the use of amulets or talismans in relation to the Black Death, combining eschatological events with social states, virtues and important or sever human conditions. The Bembo-14 may be seen "only" as an (valuable) example of the development of different kinds of such series, not fixed at any given number by any logical or natural law. But in relation to the trionfi-tradition (Michelino), it was implemented from some other source, maybe a German card-maker/seller, having with him an interesting series of amulets/talismans at a market place in Ferrara/Florence/Milan...

Yatima

Huck sees no relationship between Bembo cards and 14 Saints, and I quite agree. In a lost post I said something like this ; "I'm not saying all the 14 Saints appear in the Tarot. The Oxford Dictionary of Saints says they had little following in France and Italy". But the similarities between the Fool of "TdM" and St Roch, the Tower and St Barbara are too conspicuous to be ignored, and I believe at least we can say the TdM makers utilized the old images of saints. And in this context we should turn to the medieval medical books too: especially for the skeltonic Death presentation etc.

Thanks to Yatima for reference to the games. Once I read that the Dominican friars played a game with fifteen images from the life of Virgin Mary and this could be an element of pre-tarot -history.

This thread is very stimulating and rewarding. I'm really happy to be here, the AT forums.

Yatima said:

To add to the arguments that card-producers, wood-cutters, and card-sellers, who produced cards and figures of the saints at the same time, where probably able to produce also a set of "some" pre-Tarot-cards (not necessarily pre-Bembo, not necessarily 14, but some pre-Tarot series of combinations of Black-Death related objects including standard figures like the angelic virtues; I am not dogmatic here...),

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There is no doubt, that medieval iconography knew before - let's say 1425 - iconographical groups of allegoric figures or saints or of other content. Best example are perhaps the 14 virtues and vices of Giotto. A natural program should have been sortiments surrounding church doors.
Perhaps they even had standardisized figures around the Black Death.
The 14 Nothelfer are NOT born out of the Black Death 1348/1350. They existed 1331 in Regensburg as fresco in a church of the Dominicans. Of course it's possible, that their cult did win by the the following bad times.
But if they don't look like the Bembo cards or other Tarot cards .... there are other iconographical objects of the earlier time, which do. From this ... there is no need to concentrate on the Nothelfer.

That there have been card games that arose out of such constellations like saints or apostles or similar religious pictorial series is documented by the Rosselli-games of the workshop of Francesco Rosselli that lists plates for printing of otherwise unknown games like:

Click to expand...

Rosselli is 1528 - that's much to late to be of influence on the time discussed. There are lots of engravings in early 16th century with motifs like 7 artes liberales, 7 virtues, 12 apostles etc., orders, which are of a similar iconographical type as Tarot. But they are not Tarot. They've own iconographical specialities.

I know, the Rosselli-games are later and much to late for being a resource for the production of the ur-Tarot; but they show that it was not off hands to understand the contents of the production of games with motifs taken from several different series of holy images, be they Apostles, virtues or whatever could be grouped to use it as a series…

It lets me think that we might look for any signs of such groupings as being present either in a game or in a amulet/talisman-series, sold by card of saints and games seller we know of already of the ending 14th century, or games with such groupings.

That the 14 Nothelfer have not originated with the Great Plague is true but doesn’t give us any argument against their use mediated through this event in the middle of the 14th century. It is an accepted fact that after the plague they (together and sometimes as individuals like St. Roch) were seen as helpers against the Black Death. Whatever they stood for before this event, after it all has changed. Form there on the amulet of the Saints was pointing to the Black Death, regardless the special sufferings they stood for otherwise (and without erasing this dominion).

The Nothelfer are not interesting because of the 14 (although it amuses me), but because of their formation as a series, their use as amulets and because they were sold as cards of card-sellers who also sold playing-cards.

Nothing is necessary, but what will be valuable will be decided not by will but by life. We see connections because we sense possibilities, not necessities: this is our eye that opens the direction of seeking facts…without this we are blind in finding and interpreting facts.

Yatima

Yatima said:

I know, the Rosselli-games are later and much to late for being a resource for the production of the ur-Tarot; but they show that it was not off hands to understand the contents of the production of games with motifs taken from several different series of holy images, be they Apostles, virtues or whatever could be grouped to use it as a series…

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There should be a big difference between 1400 and 1528. 1400 is a time full of playing card prohibition, and 1528 is not. Cause of that condition in 1528 a game with "holy men" is not unlikely, especially as this time experiments exhaustically with the still new techniques of engraving and less likely for 1400.

It lets me think that we might look for any signs of such groupings as being present either in a game or in a amulet/talisman-series, sold by card of saints and games seller we know of already of the ending 14th century, or games with such groupings.

Click to expand...

It's not impossible, that they existed - but is it likely? And as we don't have any evidence, that such games existed in this time, there is no reason to become enthusiastic about just the possibility ?

That the 14 Nothelfer have not originated with the Great Plague is true but doesn’t give us any argument against their use mediated through this event in the middle of the 14th century. It is an accepted fact that after the plague they (together and sometimes as individuals like St. Roch) were seen as helpers against the Black Death. Whatever they stood for before this event, after it all has changed. Form there on the amulet of the Saints was pointing to the Black Death, regardless the special sufferings they stood for otherwise (and without erasing this dominion).

The Nothelfer are not interesting because of the 14 (although it amuses me), but because of their formation as a series, their use as amulets and because they were sold as cards of card-sellers who also sold playing-cards.

Click to expand...

Again: No evidence. We've a Christophoros from about 1423 and it's the earliest, as I've heard.

Nothing is necessary, but what will be valuable will be decided not by will but by life. We see connections because we sense possibilities, not necessities: this is our eye that opens the direction of seeking facts…without this we are blind in finding and interpreting facts.

Yatima

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Alright, I've seen that. Also I've seen, that the Nothelfer are not Tarotcards.
Cards of "Saints" and Buddhas etc. are known from ca. 1200 from Tibetian productions. They still exist. It has a form of reality, true. Probaby these were not playing cards, but who knows. The creativeness of cardmakers through the centuries is somehow unbelievable. But in the case, that they are not proven as real cards but only as fiction, its a little dry, isn't it

roppo said:

Once I read that the Dominican friars played a game with fifteen images from the life of Virgin Mary and this could be an element of pre-tarot -history.

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Hm........ Do you've more data to this?

re the Dominican game

It requires a long and winding strory to explain it, and I believe this is not the right place to do so. Once I wrote about it in a series of web articles (sorry, in Japanese) titled "Hidden Christianity; unkown Western Traditon". They are on the Secret Christianity of Japan and its strange history. In short, I believe Japan might have developed her own Tarot in seventeenth century if there were not a prohibition and persecution against Christianity. The suppresed Japanese Christians went underground and developed their own strange doctrines and rituals, even their version of the Bible, and the very strange set of wood-made-cards which originated from the Fifteen Mysteries of Rosary. Japanese scholars examined the cards and stated that the cards have a connection to the Dominican game, about which they give no further information. I personaly call the wood-cards "aborted tarot". Well, I'd better translate the articles into English. Please wait a month or so.

Now let's go back to the Black Death!

Re: re the Dominican game

roppo said:

Now let's go back to the Black Death!

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Oh, better not. That were bad times.

But your story sounds interesting. Hm. We've at trionfi.com a place for stories, which think in a more or less free way about the Origin of Tarot (especially for 14th century and earlier).

http://trionfi.com/0/e1/001.html

It's a free place to include stories, which express not our own opinion. If somebody wishes to publish there, we would help. If somebody wishes to have a link to a story somewhere in the net, it's a way, how this opinion is found in context.

Nothelfer, Black death theories, everything is welcome. Interesting opinions and views develop out of contrasts.

Well, if roppo's Dominican friars' game with fifteen images from the life of Virgin Mary existed and could be documented...some evidence would exist...So, I hope, we can get more information on that…

That fact that we do not have any notes on some cardmakers' creativity does not mean that it has not taken place. But I think, we should seek for traces of this creativity, e.g. a talisman/amulet-series related to saints and the Black Death. Since they sold both printed or painted card-figures and cards of saints since at least 1395, as was noted earlier, we might be surprised what they actually sold....

That we do not have evidence might have reasons of social nature (they were not part of the court-party that could afford notes on happenings) or because of the fact that all/almost all early non-court packs, which were not painted for higher than standard events and high social status money-people (although these were also bought by them, e.g. by the Este-court as early as 1424), have vanished although we know of their existence prior and in a wide range additional to the court-packs.

Yatima