Modern astrological natal charts vs. Traditional

My approach to chart deliniation

I do not always follow the same process steps in analyzing a chart. However, I do look at the following primary factors, often in the order given, although the sequence can vary depending upon what seems most important.

1) Angular planets; these are the power planets that tend to be most active and obvious in one's life.
2) Sun-Moon phase relationship; using Rudhyar's and Marc Robertson's eight phase approach to cycles.
3) Sun position by house.
4) Moon position by house.
5) Sun aspects to other planets, particularly hard aspects.
6) Moon aspects to other planets.
7) Angular planets and their aspects to other planets.

If the chart doesn't offer a theme that jumps out at me, I'll interrupt the above sequence and use six phase relationship patterns, these being:
* Sun-Moon for basic personality.
* Moon-Saturn for family conditioning and habits.
* Mercury-Jupiter for social interchange
* Venus-Mars for poise and sexual hangups.
* Jupiter-Saturn for the business of life and how it is conducted.
* Saturn-Uranus for opportunity, expression of individualism, excitement.

Further down the line, I'll sometimes look at planets in houses if I haven't done that as part of the primary explorations.

Signs are sometimes considered in a classical sense, but not often and only in natal, mundane or medical charts. As an extension of this, I don't often bother with rulerships and other classical approaches. Too distracting.

If I am doing a review of one's current life situation, I'll shortcut the natal chart, looking at the Sun and Moon positions and relationships, plus the six planet pairings in phase relationships. Then, I'll do a solar return and decide which dates in the year are important in terms of events or happenings that are important to the potential shown in the natal chart and solar return chart.

This may be useful to understand but do remember, Cactus, that the sequence depends upon having the skills to use this approach. In time, most astrologers develop their own individual approaches based on their success with certain types of charts and interpretive approaches. Just remember, whatever you do and use, it should be highly reliable. It is better to work with one or two tools that are highly reliable than a dozen or more that only work sometimes and which can leave you embarrassed and your client with confusion or doubt about your statements. Dave

And my approach

Cactus,

Dave has given you an excellent summary of his method and approach to a chart. For those who wish to follow a modern approach, they can do a lot worse than to use it as a basis for assessing their charts.

I kept my previous comments to the specific area of aspects and their importance, but I think it may well be worth following Dave's excellent lead and set out how I would approach a natal reading (other charts would be approached differently)

Step 1 - Temperament. This can be done in various ways, I have two methods, one short and very useful as a quick guide, the other more detailed. I will usually cross check the two, but they agree 9 times out of 10, the more detailed method showing more nuances. In the short method I look at:

a) The Ascendant by sign (note by sign means element/temperament, so your Gemini Ascendant is Sanguine (Air)
b) The Ascendant ruler - Mercury in your case, With Mercury and Venus I use their phase relationship to the Sun - Mercury is oriental (seen after sunset) and is therefore seen as Sanguine.
c) The Ascendant Almuten (planet with most essential dignity at the Ascendant degree) - Mercury again - more Sanguine.
d) The Moon by phase - I use the four quarters, in your case the Moon is third (final) quarter and is Phlegmatic
e) The Moon by Sign - in your case Pisces, a Water sign and Phlegmatic
f) The Moon ruler - in your case Jupiter, which is Sanguine
g) The Sun by phase (with the Earth( in your case Spring, which is Sanguine

This would give a balance of Sanguine/Phlegmatic as a first approximation.

The longer method would look for other Planets conjunct with the Ascendant, or in the first (in your case Sun, Mars, Mercury) plus planets that aspect the Ascendant (or planets in the Ascendant). The same process would be repeated for Moon and Sun. In your case, only Saturn would remain outside consideration up to this stage.


2) The Mind - This uses Mercury and the Moon by essential and accidental dignities. Mercury is the rational mind, the Moon is the 'animal' mind (reactive, instinctive, and subconscious)

3) That would give me a very good idea of the person I'm dealing with. I'd then look at the Angles - health, relationships with others, career, family. Planets in the angles are the more important ones in terms of daily life, as much of that falls into the areas ruled by the four angular houses.

I do use rulers, it's very likely that some angular Houses have no planets, but one can't simply assume that they play no role in life - in your case the 10th and 7th have no planets (from a traditional stance) but Jupiter rules the 7th, is placed in the fourth, aspects the Sun (out of sign square) on the Ascendant and rules the Part of Fortune. Seventh House matters actually play a big part in your every day life. and influence (though not strongly) your temperament.

Saturn rules the 10th and trines Jupiter in the fourth.

As you can see, we're also building up connections as the next stage after looking at angularity.

4) If I needed more information I'd look to the 5 Hermetic Lots, plus the Lots relating to Marriage (assuming that was a focus of interest)

Generally I don't go beyond that unless there are issues with the non angular houses, And clearly at some stages in life such issues will occur and may for a relatively short time become very important. Sometimes issues relating to health may involve chronic illness and thus the sixth may play an almost permanent role in daily life.

That is, context and situation drives the rest of the analysis and this may vary from year to year (or even month to month) - That's where return charts would come in, plus other predictive methods such as profections. Sometimes event charts will be helpful, or medical horaries, etc. The natal chart forms the starting point but if it becomes also the ending point of analysis then I see very little point to Astrology - I think both Dave and I share the need to make predictions and to chart the dynamics of an unfolding life.

Every time I read your posts (both of you) I understand clearer and clearer.

I didn't attach my chart only because I wasn't asking for a specific reading, although I realized it would have been helpful to include my chart just for examples. I suspect you may have located it in another post of mine? Anyway, there may be no point to include them now, since you've both answered my original question so excellently.

I do, however, have a question about the house systems. Do you use just one house system for all of your natal interpretations? I'd assume so because it would be crazy, too confusing to do otherwise.

I guess it's only the novices (me) who plug in Placidus, Whole, Equal...the only reason I do this is because my chart changes A LOT going from Placidus to Whole. Equal is in between the 2. And I'm compelled to consider all! Basically, I feel that since I'm a novice, I could take the advice given in this post and be clear on a basic interpretation. BUT...

But the fact is that I struggle to understand which chart describes me better because whole signs gives me 4 more angular planets (Sun in 1st, Moon in 10th, Uranus in 4th, Pluto - AACCKK, Minderwiz - in 4th).

I lose my lovely Jupiter in 4th.

AND seeing the whole signs chart makes me ask a question: If my Sun is in the 1st, and it's opposite Neptune, shouldn't Neptune be in the 7th house? Or is it so close to the 7th that it's conjunct desc?

Cactus said:

Every time I read your posts (both of you) I understand clearer and clearer.

Click to expand...

I think we both enjoy responding to questions from you and others who are trying to make sense of their charts, but it's nice to know we are appreciated

Cactus said:

I do, however, have a question about the house systems. Do you use just one house system for all of your natal interpretations? I'd assume so because it would be crazy, too confusing to do otherwise.

I guess it's only the novices (me) who plug in Placidus, Whole, Equal...the only reason I do this is because my chart changes A LOT going from Placidus to Whole. Equal is in between the 2. And I'm compelled to consider all! Basically, I feel that since I'm a novice, I could take the advice given in this post and be clear on a basic interpretation. BUT...

But the fact is that I struggle to understand which chart describes me better because whole signs gives me 4 more angular planets (Sun in 1st, Moon in 10th, Uranus in 4th, Pluto - AACCKK, Minderwiz - in 4th).

I lose my lovely Jupiter in 4th.

AND seeing the whole signs chart makes me ask a question: If my Sun is in the 1st, and it's opposite Neptune, shouldn't Neptune be in the 7th house? Or is it so close to the 7th that it's conjunct desc?

Click to expand...

When I first started learning Astrology I started off with the Equal House system but was told by my tutor that as I got better I could progress to a 'real' House system such as Placidus or Koch (all the rage at the time). I eventually did go to Placidus, tried Koch and went back and then when I got into Horary, adopted Regiomontanus because as Tony Louis said (Horary Astrology Made Simple) it was the system used by William Lilly.

Now what follows may be seen as an act of heresy, more by modern Astrologers than traditionals (the latter not wishing to offend their Hellenistic members):

NO QUADRANT SYSTEM IS ANY BETTER THAN WHOLE HOUSE OR EQUAL SIGN WHEN IT COMES TO READING A NATAL CHART

The reason I say this is not to upset other Astrologers, but because that is the reality. Quadrant systems (those with the 1st/7th cusps being the Ascendant and Descendant and the 10th/4th cusps being the MC and IC) were developed for one specific purpose - to facilitate primary directions!

Primaries require a map of the sky at the time of birth, at the place of birth and the ability to measure the movement (direction) of the planets through the sky at that place. This requires that planets rise at the Ascendant, culminate at the MC and set at the Descendant and anti-culminate at the IC. The important requirement being that we can predict when they will move to the fixed place of another natal planet.

Now one can argue about the accuracy of any suggested method to fix the intermediate House Cusps in such a method (2nd/8th. 3rd/9th, 5th/11th. 6th/12th) but absolutely these only apply to primary directions. Using such a system for natal charts, is simply through ease - there is no reason why Whole Sign Houses can't be used for natal charts and a quadrant system for directions. However inertia suggest that Astrologers will gravitate to using the same system for both - and this indeed happened.

Now I use a quadrant system for virtually all my charts - I use Regiomontanus following Louis' advice but I now know that Lilly only used it because House tables were easily available whereas charts for the recently popularised Placidus houses were not. I use Regiomontanus because I'm used to it - not because it is any better than any other system. I'm sceptical that any quadrant system is superior for Astrological purposes and I'm SURE that Astrologically speaking, Whole Sign Houses are just as valid for reading a natal chart, or ANY other chart that does not require primaries.

I'm not suggesting that you adopt Regiomontanus, or any other system, simply that you adopt a system which you feel comfortable with. When I was a student I did a reading of a chart using three separate House systems.
the results were largely in line with each other, the differences brought out useful nuances. So there's no reason why you shouldn't use two (or even three) purely for comparison. Incidentally using one because it works for interpretation of yourself, does not mean that it will work as well (from your subjective view) for other charts you read. So in the end you'll go for one that you feel comfortable with, across the charts that you read.

To get to your chart specifically. I treat any planet within 5 degrees of the House cusp as being part of that House - Your Sun is therefore 1st House and Angular - I think Dave will also treat it as angular.

Your Jupiter is in the 4th, and despite being some distance from the cusp, I'd treat it as angular - if it was in a different sign and at least 5 degrees from the cusp, I'd downgrade it a little (but only a little). Neptune I'd treat as 6th House as it's more than 5 degrees from the Descendant.

Be careful, Whole sign charts do not have angles - the Ascendant is somewhere in the 1st House (sign) but planets in the tenth and 4th are not angular in the sense they are in quadrant systems. Planets in the following signs, that in a quadrant system would be first or 7th House are second or eighth in a Whole House system. The Whole Sign system is NOT angular, and it makes a point- the angles are not necessary for reading a natal chat - they ARE necessary for primary directions.

Which House best describes you? They all describe you but you aren't really the best judge of which descibes you the best - we are rarely absolutely honest with ourselves, and sometimes we can't be - there are things about ourselves that we are not aware of, but are very obvious to others.

Use the three, and keep using them. UNTIL you begin to settle on one. But never be afraid to try a different perspective.

Whole Sign and Equal Houses are far more reliable than quadrant systems for fixing the intermediate House cusps - they ALL occur at Sign boundaries or at a particular degree of a sign

PS They also work ANYWHERE on Earth!

But . . .

But, four decades of using the quadrant system (unequal houses in most cases) with the MC-Solar Cycle (solar return and progressed-angle daily charts) has shown over and over, ad infinitum, that when the quadrant MC or IC is hit, then things happen. Of course, solar return systems tend to break the rules of other areas of astrology. Dave

And....

I think you're setting up a straw man there LOL!

I said that Whole Sign and Equal House systems were equally valid for natal Astrology (which obviously does not invalidate quadrant systems) but that quadrant systems were developed for predictive work - originally primary directions.

Now if you are using a predictive system which is Angle related, (and you do) then you couldn't use anything but a quadrant system, for those predictions and if I'm right it's only the angles that you use, because you're very suspicious of the validity of the intermediate house cusps, when these can vary significantly depending on which House system is used.

There's no contradiction between your statement of 40 years of valuable results and my statement that quadrant systems were developed for predictive work.

On the other hand that does not mean that other predictive methods, which don't use quadrant systems are invalid. We live in an Astrological environment where the quadrant system has become the norm, but that doesn't make it the only valid approach to houses or predictions. I use a quadrant system but I certainly would not have the temerity to tell Rob Hand that his use of Whole Sign Houses is invalid or tell Chris Brennan that his use of profections is wrong.

Sorry for a silly question, but are there predictive systems that can be used with whole sign houses? I'm wondering if I could get away with (not the best phrase, LOL) just using whole sign houses for both natal and prediction work.

"With" or "in spite of"

You can always use solar arc directions. Thanks to Noel Tyl. Solar Arc direction, coupled with midpoints and the 90 degree wheel, are very popular.

But, you can use solar arc directions with conventional charts. Most purchased astrological software provides this functionality.

There are nuances of interpretation when using solar arc direction methods compared to secondary progression methods.

** SOLAR ARC directions are biased towards the Sun, the emphasis is on conscious acts and decision, how ones health can be affected, ones outward personality and world experiences. All planets "move" at the Sun's pace. As a consequence, there are often more developing aspects to be found and evaluated. This become increasingly true if one uses midpoints and the 90 degree wheel --- which involves using 45 degree aspects and their multiple.

** SECONDARY progressions are biased towards one's whole development as it occurs in a personal sense relative to the natal chart. While some people can have similar chart characteristics, the time of our birth and the use of secondary progressions represents two factors: FIRST, the natal chart has its inherent meanings, and TWO, the movement of the planets are all very individual in nature and reflect the developmental process of the individual. The Moon plays a key role due to its rapid rate of advance, while the outer planets play very minor roles except when contacted by the Moon or the faster moving planets that are close to them in the natal chart.

Using the house system you mentioned, the solar arc direction method will show you how those house cusps are activated and expressed, if at all. The secondary progression method will also show one how those house cusps of the preferred system will prove or disprove themselves.

I'm sure others will point out other predictive methods that are common or typical for early-studies students to explore. Dave

Lee said:

Sorry for a silly question, but are there predictive systems that can be used with whole sign houses? I'm wondering if I could get away with (not the best phrase, LOL) just using whole sign houses for both natal and prediction work.

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No it's not a silly question at all. It's quite a good one.

Yes there are a number of possible methods you could use with whole sign Houses. They're not necessarily difficult to get used to, but they will seem quite strange to a modern mind.

The first is planetary periods, or Time Lords (nothing to do with Doctor Who)

http://alabe.com/text/PERIODS.html

By Bruce Schofield will give you a good introduction. I've tried them and to be honest I've not done particularly well but I suspect that's more to do with my lack of skill. They are certainly worth looking at.

The second is Zodiacal Releasing. It's similar to the above but measures from a Greek Lot - Fortune and Spirit are the only two that are really used. The former gives some indication of what will befall you (i.e. outside your control) and the latter gives an indication of how you will excercise influence - usually through career changes. I've seen others report very good results for these but as yet I've only dabbled. I did mention them in the thread on Predictive Methods.

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=150134&highlight=Zodiacal+Releasing

Thirdly Profections - which was the main system used in Hellenistic times and remained in use up to the Seventeenth Century. Profections involve rotating the chart by one sign for each year of life (the planets are moved one sign on but at the same degrees. The original Hellenistic system didn't used Whole Sign Houses but by the Seventeenth Century, the system was used with quadrant Houses. I took a look at Profections in the thread:

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=135390

There is one very familiar method that can be used - transits. However Transits work best as the last stage on timing, rather than a stand alone method (though many use it as such).

I have to say that I can't vouch for any of these methods (though I've found the Seventeenth Century version of Profections works very well).

Chris Brennan,

http://www.hellenisticastrology.com/courses.html

Has two modules on Zodiacal Releasing and Annual Profections, both of which cost $30 each. I've not tried them but I might have a go and report back at some stage.

Thanks Minderwiz, I appreciate the info!