Planets in Containment compared to conventional chart reading.

A note about planets versus rulerships

Hello All. The corrected birth time chart for M-press has an interesting configuration that we may want to discuss and evaluate. It raises a question of the relative strength of planets versus rulerships. Consider: Pluto sextiles the Sun and Neptune, and trines the MC. Pluto has modern-day rulership over the DSC angle. Does the intensity of expressing M-press's identity focus on both the career/public standing aspects of her life (MC) or on the relationship aspects? Consider: Jupiter is opposite the ASC, on the DSC, and widely conjunct Venus. Since these are Jupiter's only primary aspects, does Jupiter control the expression of M-press's personality via optimism and seeking expansive contacts with others? Planet Power or Rulership Power. Of course, the answer for/by M-press may be different for someone else. But, this is an interesting side light of the chart. Dave.

question about planets versus rulerships

Hi Dave!
I really like the way you ask questions, the little places you find interesting...

There is something I don't understand here..." strength of planets versus rulerships."
What do you mean by that?
Are you comparing what Jupiter does vs what Pluto does? meaning which of them is over-powering?
Or/and do you call ruler planet, Pluto, since i'm a Scorp, and Pluto rules scorps?

As "objectively" as I can answer, both my 6th and 7th house, are very intense, and all i do is deal with both of them!

I posted a thread earlier on the doubts I had about ‘sign’ free readings using planetary containment. It was rather a rushed job and a little confused, so I’ve taken some time and reflected on the issue. Although the discussion has moved on a little from that point and the issue of rulerships is one I'd also like to see developed, I feel that I do need to address the issue of reading without signs.

Let me start with a planetary ‘run’ – Jupiter, Mars, Venus. The first question is can these planets have meaning without sign. The answer is yes the can. To use some simple key words, Jupiter is personal expansion and growth, Mars is self assertiveness and drive and Venus is a desire for harmony, relationships and material well being. There are other key words that can be used but I will keep to three. Growth, Assertion and Harmony. Is it possible to place a meaning on the run? Yes it is. I could argue that here we have a situation where the self assertion is based on the need for personal growth and is aimed at achieving harmony with others and with the universe. Again there are other interpretations that could be put on this run. I made no reference to the Sandbach and Ballard book in drawing up this interpretation but it seems to make some sense, so I will work with it.

My first question is, will the reading be improved if I took into account the signs of the planets. Clearly a lot of possible combinations exist but I will look briefly at two. The first is, Jupiter in Pisces, Mars in Aries, Venus in Taurus. All three planets are in signs they rule. They are therefore strong and traditionally, they will act nobly. These placings suggest that the potential shown in the run will be achieved and most likely fully realised. It is unlikely that the three planets will ‘get in each others way’ the most adverse circumstance being a semi-square between Jupiter and Venus (a sextile is, of course, more likely). Nevertheless knowing the signs suggests that the probabilities strongly favour achievement.

Consider an alternative, Jupiter in Virgo, Mars in Libra and Venus in Scorpio. All three planets are now in detriment and relatively weak, though there is a mutual reception between Mars and Venus. These two might help each other but if Venus has a semi-square to Jupiter or possibly even a sextile we may have over indulgence and an attempt to lead the good life rather than achieve that harmony. The potential may still be realised, indeed it is more likely than not but the way may not be so easy and the potential may only be partially realised.

Knowing the signs therefore gives additional meaning to the reading. However it could well be argued that the point is more that a sign free reading has occurred, even if it is not as good as using the signs explicitly. So I will in the next post turn my attention to whether the reading is fully sign free.

Part 2

The second and main issue is whether the reading, even without stating the signs is ‘sign free’. This can be addressed by asking where the run comes from – it is taken from a natal chart (or I suppose any chart). How is it shown in the natal chart? - as planets plotted in signs. Indeed if we think about it there is no existence to the run in any sense other than by reference to the signs.

More particularly the run exists only as observed from Earth against the backcloth of the Zodiac – from any other standpoint in the solar system the run does not exist at all. The run is therefore a product of the zodiac, whether it is explicitly referred to or not. Indeed if we consider the cycles of the planets around the zodiac, as seen from Earth, they are rather like a watch with ten hands. The Moon measures monthly cycles, the Mercury, Venus and the Sun annual cycles, Mars two year cycles, Jupiter 12 year cycles and Saturn 29 year cycles. Uranus’ cycle marks the human life and those of Neptune and Pluto the cycles of human nations. It is quite possible therefore that from the sequence of planets alone the date of an event, such as a birth can be deduced. The planetary run contains the stamp of the date it happened. If the signs can be worked out from the sequence then the sequence is not ‘sign free’.

Planetary containment also makes use of the Ascendant and the MC. What are these but points in the Zodiac. The Ascendant may say something about how I project myself to the world, what my general health is like or something about me as a person. But what that something is depends entirely on the Zodiac point it occupies. The same holds for the MC.

These two points mark delineate the four cardinal points of the chart and therefore the houses. Virtually every (though not all) house system uses the Ascendant as its starting point – the potential of life and the MC as the zenith of life. Planetary containment thus not only references the signs in order to convey meaning, it also acknowledges the houses as well.

Does this invalidate the use of planetary containment. I’m not a good enough Astrologer to answer that fully but my feeling is that the answer is no. Planetary containment may well provide some way of looking at the chart which allows the Astrologer to tease further meaning from it. It adds to the armoury of the Astrologer but it is not independent of signs or houses.

Planetary Strengths

Sorry to post three consecutive replies – but if I leave it much later I won't be able to respond to the interesting issues raised by Dave over rulerships (well at least till next week )

I’m not quite sure what is meant by relative strength of planets versus rulerships – the system of rulerships is part of the greater system of essential dignities and this is the only system I’m aware of that measures the essential strength of planets. Essential dignity might ‘conflict’ with accidental dignity, for example Mercury in Virgo (essentially strong) but retrograde (accidentally weak) or, as in M-Press’ case Saturn peregrine (essentially weak) but Angular in the first (Accidentally strong) and also retrograde (Accidentally weak).

However there are real issues over sign and house rulership which Dave raises and one which an Astrologer needs to consider in chart interpretation. I’m not sure whether there is ‘an answer’ but I hope the following comments give some food for further discussion.

Taking M-Press’ chart, I note that Saturn is just over half a degree from the Ascendant and in the first house. I know of some Astrologers who would say that Saturn, not Venus rules the Ascendant in this case and M-Press might well consider if that improves the reading of her chart. Saturn is also in opposition to Jupiter and Venus both in Scorpio. So as well as the tension between Saturn and Venus over who rules the Ascendant, we have a tension directly between the two – a sort of tug of war over the rulership of M-Press’ expression of herself in the world. Saturn also rules the MC (in Capricorn) so if we were to allow Saturn as the Ascendant ruler we might get a greater correlation between M-press personal expression and her role in society (usually career). While Venus is relatively weak in Scorpio, Jupiter does have some essential dignity so the Saturn/Jupiter opposition also raises some interesting issues as to how the pull between the need to expand in relationships and partnerships can be reconciled with the a possible restricted or limited or fearful self expression (if we allow the Ascendant victory to Saturn). Saturn is also the only planet in the Eastern hemisphere, and the handle to a rather narrow bucket. Saturn therefore is an important focal planet in any case.

The issue of Pluto for me is easily dealt with because I keep to traditional rulerships – so Pluto does not rule the seventh and its influence will be through the aspects it makes and which Dave outlines. It may give some slightly greater intensity to a Mars ruled seventh as it makes a contribution to the house. As Dave says, most ‘modern’ Astrologers assign Scorpio to Pluto so if we accept that, then relationships will be definitely more intense and also will be a driving force behind career and also add an intensity to M-Press’s seventh House Sun. A Mars rulership of the seventh would tend to suggest that M-Press likes to play an assertive role in relationships, that Mars is weak in Scorpio and is also in the sixth, might suggest that this requires a little bit more effort to achieve.

Mars and Venus are in mutual reception, so a Mars rulership of the seventh eases Venus predicament a little and Venus rulership of the sixth similarly provides a little relief to Mars. What is more these two (on traditional rulerships) disposit the rest, so these two could be seen as the most important pair in the chart.

It will be interesting to see other points of view on this but I think as Dave implies, the answer for an individual Astrologer is likely to be what works best in producing accurate readings.

The discussion continues.

First of all, thanks Minderwiz for your extensive comments. This is just the sort of thing that is often missing from Internet postings -- a solid discussion.
*** Do signs add to a conventional astrological chart interpretation? Yes. Are they absolutely necessary? No. Are there conventional and well-used approaches that do not require signs? Yes, mid-points for one. I don't consider Containments as yet being mid-stream -- or even well known.
*** Planets plotted against the zodiac -- this I'd like to discuss. As for as Planetary Containment goes, the zodiac is not a factor! The key concept here is the order in which a planet/body rises over the horizion and comes into "view." Planets above the horizon have always been given more "strength" than planets below the horizon. As I noted in a previous post, we can start to get a feel for the importance of this if we picture ourselves as just being born with the Moon just coming over the eastern horizon. We have a strong anxiety, a tidal urge of responses and emotions that prompts us to react quite quickly to external stimuli -- if Moon symbology is accurate. An hour or so later old Saturn wanders up into view. Our short life's experience now seems to imprint us with a damping of our emotions. We've been here for an hour and everything is OK, so lets experience what this new-found sense of calm or restraint is. A long part of the daily cycle goes by and suddenly, Sun and Mars pop over the horizon together. Out with the calmness, there is a need to place myself into this world, to be me. I'll cry and act out, I'll find out how to impact the level and type of attention I'm getting. This little story merely intends to make the point that Containments, IMHO, are about the order of rising and not about their place in the zodiac. In this case, signs are irrelevant.
*** Rulerships. I had intended my comment on this area to be quite localized, limited to whether Mars or Pluto (as ruler of the 7th angle and sign) or Jupiter would have the most impact on how M-press expressed and projected through the symbology of her 7th angle. Its hard to seperate the effect of opposing Saturn on the ASC. Jupiter opposed Saturn, by itself, suggests a fluctuation between self-esteem and self-doubt; approval can be gained by taking on challenges. So, the question here is, "Will the planetary energies outweigh the rulership imposition of a Mars or Pluto influence? This is, again, a localized assessment and is not intended to be a general "rulership" discussion.
*** Let's briefly discuss chart interpretation by three methods: Conventional planet/sign/house/aspect methods, Containments, and Mid-points. As a general rule, each component or combination within the given methodology will paint a portion of the overall personal/potential picture -- BUT, no one portion of any one of the three methodologies is likely to be similar to one of the other methodologies. It is only in the total assessment that each method uses that a similar "whole" picture emerges. For me, the wonder is that almost any approach to astrology can work as long it has integrity within itself. Isn't that amazing?
*** So, do we want to do another Containment exercise? Does M-press need more chart interpretation or do we want to pursue the Containment issues? Do we want to take on another subject? Note that our threads do seem to attract a lot of silent viewers so I know we are providing a good informational service to those in the earlier stages of their astrological studies. I just wish they weren't so shy. One of these times I would like to explore viewing certain Planetary Pairs through Phase Angles -- another form of astrology without signs and houses. I use thsi methodology as a short-cut view prior to doing conventional chart readings. Dave.

Thanks for the speedy response Dave,

I'll have to think about your points a little before I can come back - though I think we might hit a fair degree of agreement on a number of these - even if its only that there are more than one way to read a chart!

I did try to make some of my comments on rulerships specific to M-Press' chart, though I wasn't sure from your post how wide you were pitching the point.

what i have learned...

Hi guys!

Thank you both for all this, both on the personal and the learning level. I find it all very interesting, and will try to see what "comes out":

- i find the containment method very useful, especially when one has no hour of birth. It's a way to get more out of what you have, with out having it all.

- I found both analysis accurate, and i feel that "the more, the merier". meaning, I got from each things that I didn't get from the other, and in both cases there was important stuff.

-shape of chart: My chart has this dreary shape, as M mentions 'a narrow backet", with Saturn using it as a kite!
As someone who experiences this chart from first hand, I can say that Saturn there is BIG! He's not the center (taurus in ASC is big too), but saturn just makes every thing a LOT of work for me, even the pleasurable things. It's tuff, and lately i'm getting a bit tired of it (I need a break form Jupi), and hopefully, one will come... (yes, optimistic...but fluctuation between self-esteem and self-doubt.)
NOW, this part of the Saturn influence did not show as much in the contaiments (and please lemmeno if you think it did...)

SO, as Dave wrote "no one portion of any one of the three methodologies is likely to be similar to one of the other methodologies. It is only in the total assessment that each method uses that a similar "whole" picture emerges."

- My question on this is, which method is best, to know what the person is like?
Astrology is first and most about self-knowledge, but we use it to know and understand others...
So, did you feel you knew what I'm about from the Containments?
Myself, i felt that some "hiddedn" aspects of me were revealed, or of the kind that I never had a name for, for example :
"*** sun-NEPTUNE-mercury. Ethics and beliefs support an idealism and vision that leads to mental imaging, plans, talk and suggestions -- or internal daydreaming. Plans can be subject to constant revision".
I learned a lot form that, but I wasn't sure all the time that we were talking about me...

On the other hand, when we do a regular chart, which planet in which sign, and so on, i get immediatelyt the "recipie", and the flavor of the person (although I can never imagine how this person will make me feel, (well ,maybe with more study...)
The whole thing actually reminds me of color modes: for example, i totally get CMYK (cyan, magents, yellow, black), and know what to mix to get any color, but in RGB (red, green, blue) mode??? forget it!
Now, they both work, and both are accurate, but both come from "different places", and communicate differently the same info...

So, what am I saying?
well, that all this is great, and I'm totally captivated from it all!

We can definitely move on to another excersice/chart... maybe someone famous? this way we can all "know the material"? Just a suggestion...

Last note: Thank you again. I feel so priviledged to have met you here...

Comments for M-press

Well, a lot of comments and information.
1) Saturn: Saturn on the ASC is a big deal. For many it tends towards seriousness, but with an opposition it tends to forms of fluctuation. As far as the Containments go, Saturn plays no role in the Venus-Jupiter-Sun combination. Saturn is part of the Asc-Saturn-Moon combination -- now, this is interesting. The Asc degree is a result of birth timing and of declination and of local latitude. In your case, although Saturn appears to be very close to the ASC degree, it actually rises some 22 minutes after birth, about 6 degrees of zodiac rising later. So, the Containment combination is definitely ASC-Saturn-Moon and not Sat-Asc-Moon. The Ascendant meaning is the foundation for how Saturn expresses itself, and the Moon seeks to direct the means of expression -- this translates (using both conventional and containment factors) into "the fixed nature of the basic personality experiences some pain in coping with fluctuating moods and views. This is contrary to the Saturn influence, so over time there is likely to be a sense of conservatism that is developed to limit the possibility and scope of change. Yet this is often thwarted by the perception of changing demands from the external world. As a result, the personality and its coping structures are continually being challenged. In its own way this does eventually bring a sense of control as the personality seeks to also shape the environment, finding ways to channel its approach to her (Internet) so as to be less affected by changes on a minute to minute basis." That interpretation may be how an astrologer would use/blend these two particular techniques into a hopefully helpful statement.
2) Your question about which method is best is easily answered. Whatever methods the astrologer uses, and uses well, can be blended to aid in helping someone understand themselves. There is no single best method. Almost every astrologer with some experience uses their own "tool box" of insights and methods.
3) Sun-Neptune-Mercury: This containment pattern speaks for itself but the conventional chart link OF Mercury to the other two planetS DOESN'T EXIST. Only you can consider that and decide if it really does work. We can vary the words used to carry the symbology. Neptune can represent a wavering, indecision, a softness in how an issue is experienced, a dreaminess, lack of clarity or firmness. If we combine that with the Sun, your ability to integrate the several aspects of your personality and experiences can be diluted, making it hard for Mercury to perceive and categorize a situation -- resulting in wavering decisions, a lack of focus, a difusion of goals, etc. This actually fits with and supports the Asc-Saturn-Moon Containment pattern. Again, I state that while each component of either methodology will not be the same, the total picture that emerges is much the same. The picture becomes more robust and helpful when we combine methodologies.
4) We can indeed pick a well known personality and then apply several/many methodologies to gain better insights into the practice of astrology. Any suggestions are welcome. Dave. PS, I made a small edit to the post as indicated by the capital letters in section three. Haste makes for poor grammer.

Oh, Dave!

So much to "drink" from you!!!!

Dave wrote:
"As a result, the personality and its coping structures are continually being challenged. In its own way this does eventually bring a sense of control as the personality seeks to also shape the environment, finding ways to channel its approach to her (Internet) so as to be less affected by changes on a minute to minute basis."

Please tell me one thing: will things eventually change????? did you mean by "(Internet)" what I think you did???

NEXT CASE:
I found the bithdates and time of quite a few: (www.astrodatabank.com)

I thougth of Madonna, Ben Affleck, and my favorite, and less kitchy is...Martha Stewart!
Of course, anyone else is good for me...

I must prepare now for an important meeting/closing of contract, that (maybe) will eventually change things....
I'll be back with planetary sequences for Martha, unless you feel like digging into some politician or scientist, or a more glam celebrity...

Looking forward to my "detachment" from this!