Tarot Spreads: The Celtic Cross #2-the four "cross" cards

Surrounding the two cards at the center are four cards. Above, below, behind and forward are the usual meanings.

Behind and forward are usually pretty clear. One is past, one is future (near future).

But what about the "above" and "below" cards? What do these mean? Sometimes "below" means the root of the problem, it's base.

"Above" however, is a little sticky. It can sometimes imply someone or something that can help you, an angel above watching over you.

How do you interpet these four cards? Relating them to the center card isn't too difficult, but what about the card that "crosses" the center card? How to you relate past, future, above, below to that?

Just to add/remind you, those four are traditionally listed as:

"This is below him," (#3--basis)
"this is behind him" (#4--past influence)
"This Crowns him," (#5--future)
"This is before him," (#6--near future)

Thirteen, (and readers)

I love your "Basics." If the world is right, these will end up in a book. And, I will be the first in line to buy this book.

But, when you confront the Celtic Cross, you end up with stuff like this: "How do you interpet these four cards? Relating them to the center card isn't too difficult, but what about the card that "crosses" the center card? How to you relate past, future, above, below to that?"

Well, I guess the foot bone is connected to the ankle bone, but gosh . . .

Try the Talisman Spread. If you don't like/agree with the meanings, then create your own, like CJ did. And others. Then you have a spread you can work with.

I mean --

You buy a brand new Tarot deck, your first, bring it home, read the LWB, and lay out a Celtic Cross. There are only elevinity-seven ways to lay it out. Does the elbow bone really connect to the head bone?

Then we read things like: "The Celtic Cross #2 the four "cross" cards . . . etc."

Try sitting on the floor and stuffing your left ankle bone in your right ear . . .

This is not what Tarot is about.

Almost every deck you might buy has a LWB (little white book), and almost every LWB has a version of the Celtic Cross. Ignore this. If you've read this, you've found Aeclectic, and Thirteen, and you've found a better path to follow.

Talisman

Thirteen, (and readers)

I love your "Basics." If the world is right, these will end up in a book. And, I will be the first in line to buy this book.

But, when you confront the Celtic Cross, you end up with stuff like this: "How do you interpet these four cards? Relating them to the center card isn't too difficult, but what about the card that "crosses" the center card? How to you relate past, future, above, below to that?"

Well, I guess the foot bone is connected to the ankle bone, but gosh . . .

Try the Talisman Spread. If you don't like/agree with the meanings, then create your own, like CJ did. And others. Then you have a spread you can work with.

I mean --

You buy a brand new Tarot deck, your first, bring it home, read the LWB, and lay out a Celtic Cross. There are only elevinity-seven ways to lay it out. Does the elbow bone really connect to the head bone?

Then we read things like: "The Celtic Cross #2 the four "cross" cards . . . etc."

Try sitting on the floor and stuffing your left ankle bone in your right ear . . .

This is not what Tarot is about.

Almost every deck you might buy has a LWB (little white book), and almost every LWB has a version of the Celtic Cross. Ignore this. If you've read this, you've found Aeclectic, and Thirteen, and you've found a better path to follow.

Talisman

Hey, Talisman,

I think you understand now why I brought up the CC in the first place, but let me use your post to clarify anyway.

by thirteen
How do you interpet these four cards? Relating them to the center card isn't too difficult, but what about the card that "crosses" the center card? How to you relate past, future, above, below to that?

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I perhaps expressed this badly and deserved the scorn for it. That said, I don't think Tarot is like bone connections, because bone connections are absolute (ankle bone always to leg bone). Card connections may be absolute (past, present, future--relate in that order)...or not depending on the spread. So the questions are not so foolish as they seem.

There are various interpetations of phrases like "this covers you," or "this crosses you." What makes this a difficult spread for beginners is remembering what those words mean. The questions were meant to get a discussion going on that.

Now if the center card means the querent, then every card around it relates to it. But if the center card is the atmosphere surrounding the person, does every card relate to it?

To ask the question better, "If the card is atmosphere, do you typically relate it to all four of the cards (above, below, past, future) or only to the below (basis) and past (influence)--both of which seem more relevant to 'atmosphere' than "future" cards." Discuss.

Ditto with the "crosses" card, which might be opposition (there's some disagreement in books about that). Obviously what the cards are will decide in most cases whether you relate this to above, below, side-to-side. But if there's no evident connection, would you be inclined to see the "crosses" card as just the here and now, unrelated to the others?

And CC really isn't ankle bone connected to leg bone. No indeed. You don't put down the "crosses" card and then connect it to the "basis" card just because it's the next card down. Do "covers" and "crosses" float seperate from the others? Do these 4 cards connect (below, behind, crown, before) as you might "past, present, future" or are they, too, all seperate (basis for the question--below--*might* be related to past influence--behind--but it need not be)? And what about Crown/Before--if they're both interpeted as "future" what's different about them? Are they related?

My questions were asked with such thoughts in mind, and I see now that I ought to have been much clearer about it. Hope this helps springboard the discussion better.

'Lo, Thirteen,

Believe me when I say that I am your biggest fan.

But. I liked your "diatribe" about the Celtic Cross in another forum better. I know, I know. You have to confront the CC because it is almost certainly the most popular spread in the entire long history of the universe. But . . .

Wonder if anyone's experience was similiar to mine? (No, probably not. When I got my first deck, I was so unaware and ignorant about Tarot, it was like it had just been invented that very day.) I sat down my my new deck and the LWB and started laying out CCs. Book in hand, 'cause I had to look up the meaning of every single card. I layed out about 57 Celtic Crosses. (What? There's a rule that says you can't lay out 57 Celtic Crosses in one day?) The next day, I grew thoughtful, and only layed out about 53 CCs.

I agree, agree, agree with you about using keywords to initially learn the meanings of cards. Sorta like learning Wing Flapping 101 on the edge of the nest. Once you are flying (I get this right/left brain stuff mixed up), you can forget about it, and just fly.

But, gadzooks, it proceeds dreadfully slow if you have to discover your own keywords with only the aid of a LWB -- and 57 Celtic Crosses.

And, you are right. The bone-connecting analogy is totally inept.

But (my very last "but"), wish I had a Thirteen when I started. We're talking "years" here.

Talisman

Talisman (02 Feb, 2002 04:06):
I layed out about 57 Celtic Crosses....The next day, I grew thoughtful, and only layed out about 53 CCs.

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Ah. I see. So when you were tossed into shark infested waters you said, "Darn it," spitting out icy seawater and dog paddling fast as you could, "I'm gonna learn how to swim as well as these swarms of sharp-toothed fish if it kills me!";D

But, gadzooks, it proceeds dreadfully slow if you have to discover your own keywords with only the aid of a LWB -- and 57 Celtic Crosses.

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Oh, yes indeed! And you're quite right. I shouldn't berate poor beginners who, for the most part, have only that. Really, I should be laying siege to the LWB folk, marching out in front of the LWB factory with a sign that reads, "LWB cruel to Beginners!" Maybe post a few photos of beginners weeping pitiously over a CC layout, start a website....

Hey, I'm only half-kidding here. You *are* right. What's a beginner to do? Especially in the days before aeclectic.net? I'm in awe of your persistence and determination. I just gazed at the shark infested waters and said, "I learned 78 card and THIS is what I'm to do with them? T'hell with you!" And quit.

And came back. And quit. And came back. Speed ahead to the day I saw someone do another spread and had this ephiphany. "Hey. There are other spreads!"

But then one wanders here, to a virtual mecca of Tarot wisefolk and one finds....

The Celtc Cross. I envision myself in one of those movies where the hero (heroine) learns a terrible ironic truth and, falling to their knees screams up at the rainy sky (and camera) "Noooooooo!"

These study posts are my desperate attempt to stay sane. It's like when I was a kid trying to learn guitar. This will date me, but I'd sit with the older kids hoping to learn some cool songs. And every time, every single one of them would only play: "Stairway to Heaven."

Every...single...time. That darn guitar rift.

I never learned that song. And as I was never very musical--still ain't--I don't figure I need to try and listen to it now with fresh ears. But as I am a Tarot Reader, I feel it only right to try and look at the Celtic Cross with fresh eyes, to see if there's any beauty or elegance to this spread.

But (my very last "but"), wish I had a Thirteen when I started. We're talking "years" here.

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LOL! Thank you, that's very kind and flattering. I wish the same

Let me drift back to the guitar story. A neighbor girl was my teacher. So she shows me the cords, no problem. I dutifully practice them. Then she gives me some basic tunes. No problem. Then she give me the song "Tom Dooley." Every heard this one? Crap cowboy tune about a guy who's killed someone and is "gonna die...."

Next week, I haven't practiced. She teaches me new cords and gives me a song, more advanced, but just as dreadful. Week goes by, I'm not practicing. New cords, new song, just as bad. You get the idea. New week, new song time. The now demoralized teacher flips through her song book. She strums a little, flips the pages, strums another--no, not that one--turns the page, starts plucking out this little James Brown tune.

I perk up. "I want that one!" And she gives me this double take. Not because the song is hard, though it is a bit advanced. No, because I haven't done squat with any other song so far. She gives it to me. I practice all week, happy as a clam. Played it beautifully for her that next week. From then on, she gave me a choice of songs from the song book.

So that's what I'm wondering here. If I'd learned tarot from a teacher--no LWB in sight!--learned basic spreads like basic cords and strums on a guitar--when it came to laying out more complex spreads (playing more complex tunes) would I have *ever* wanted to learn the Celtic Cross? Or, all bias aside, does it just not appeal to me?

Doin' my best here to find out

Hmmmmmmm ... I think the CC is useful, but mind you I had to break it down with Mary Greer's chapter on permutations to really appreciate it. Based on some key words in your 1st post on this subject I believe our study group might have been what raised your hackles Thirteen. For that I am sorry.

I think that the CC, as in everything related to Tarot, has a built in flexibility (basic premiss with subtle variations depending on the question.) My basic premiss is that card 1 is where I am now in relation to the question, card 2 helpful/opposing forces (what crosses or influences me), card 3 is my foundation (what aspect of me based has attracted this to me or the root of the problem - just depends on the cards), card 4 my recent past, card 5 what crowns me (goal or outcome I wish for), card 6 the near future.

I agree that the LWB just gives people enough info to get really confused and disheartened. That is one reason I am so enjoying Mary Greer's Tarot for Yourself book ... she is clarifying a lot of things the LWB took for granted that I knew (or understood). If you decide to picket them let me know and I will join you *LOL*. The permutations she presents give you options to better understand the CC if you need more clarification or want to identify potential patterns. She presents several options so that you can choose the one that you like best if you decide to use them.

I also purchased the book on spreads you recommended to us and look forward to trying some new spreads once I am done with my studygroup work. Just trying to learn one thing at a time and stay focused so I can progress. I have a tendency to go in about 8 different directions when I get all excited about something *LOL*.

Love & Light,

Jewel (07 Feb, 2002 05:58):
Based on some key words in your 1st post on this subject I believe our study group might have been what raised your hackles Thirteen. For that I am sorry.

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Oh, not at all, really! I've held a grudge against CC for a while now Not fair, really, as it's not the spread's fault if LWB folk insist on making it the center of attention.

If you decide to picket them let me know and I will join you *LOL*.

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Alright! making up signs now! Freedom from CC!

Regarding the book of spreads, maybe we can do a study group on some of the more complex ones, when you get to them. There's some really interesting ones.

Thirteen (07 Feb, 2002 10:59):
Regarding the book of spreads, maybe we can do a study group on some of the more complex ones, when you get to them. There's some really interesting ones.

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~Puts her paint brush and her anti-CC sign aside~ That sounds like fun Thirteen. Any you would recommend I start looking at?


Love & Light,