Hebrew Alphabet & Tarot

Do you believe Tarot was originally based on the Hebrew alphabet?

  • Yes

    Votes: 5 5.7%
  • No

    Votes: 68 77.3%
  • It seems likely, even if unproven

    Votes: 4 4.5%
  • I don't know

    Votes: 11 12.5%

  • Total voters
    88

moderndayruth

gregory said:
That was what I did, too. But also I think we can never know - and does it matter ? (*ducks*)
I also think we can never know and to me personally it doesn't matter - aside from the desire to help Teheuti in finding out via poll how many of us believe what because it might be important for something she is working on (which, later on, of course, would become important for many of us). ;)
 

Yygdrasilian

Read it while it lasts

Your survey question reflects a bias that excludes other possibilities.
Kabbalah and Tarot are isomorphic systems derived from a common source - probably Egyptian.
As you do not wish to discuss theories of an Egyptian origin in that survey, I highly doubt you will debate them here.
It appears your survey here has no place for anyone who might share my view.

And your forum is censored.
 

gregory

Yygdrasilian said:
And your forum is censored.
Moderated, not censored. We all know this - didn't you ?

With 10,000 + members, it needs to be. It's the only way to guard against spam and trolls.

Good morning, and I still disagree with you. I don't see that there is any real evidence either way. But a real debate would be fine - "I know the truth and I can't tell you or you would lose the thrill of the chase" is NOT debate. This poll deals with only one issue. Polls are like that. You could set one up if you liked....
 

Moonbow

Yygdrasilian, you have your own thread for your own views, that is not censorship. You are also welcome to post anywhere else, but when a thread becomes more about you and less about the topic we have to step in and separate it to give others a chance. The only posts removed were personal remarks made by a number of people, not just you.

If you would like to discuss this further please PM me.

Moonbow*
 

Ross G Caldwell

I think Mary's question was phrased properly - it asked whether you "believe" that Tarot was "originally" based on the Hebrew Alphabet. She didn't ask whether such a relationship between the two was personally meaningful to you, or whether it could have come about later.

So obviously I voted "no".

We can "know" that Tarot was not originally based on the Hebrew Alphabet as well as we can know most things in distant history - by gathering evidence and drawing conclusions. There are many kinds of evidence, and many methods for evaluating it. In early Tarot's case, all of the evidence is silent on a connection with the Hebrew alphabet, and all of the methods of evaluating the evidence make it implausible that there was a connection.

The Hebrew alphabet has 22 letters; the standard Tarot deck has 21 ordered trumps and a Fool, which are often taken together as 22 Trumps. This is the only "connection", and is at the very least a coincidence. Thus it cannot be ruled out as a logical possibility that either the inventor of this sequence of cards or an early interpreter noted the coincidence and found it meaningful in some way. But the coincidence extends no further - the names and lore of the Hebrew letters have no relationship with the images and sequence of the trumps. Thus it seems extremely unlikely that the coincidence of number has any meaning, i.e. that the coincidence IS evidence of such a relationship.

Any disinterested historian can therefore say with complete confidence, as much as can be expected in history, that the Tarot was not originally based on the Hebrew alphabet. That's the only rational conclusion.

If evidence comes up to show otherwise, it will not be shameful for the rational historian to say "I was wrong".

Ross
 

gregory

Ross G Caldwell said:
If evidence comes up to show otherwise, it will not be shameful for the rational historian to say "I was wrong".

Ross
Absolutely - and sometimes here that actually happens ! ;)
 

Yygdrasilian

Beneath the Underdog

gregory said:
Moderated, not censored. We all know this - didn't you ?

With 10,000 + members, it needs to be. It's the only way to guard against spam and trolls.

Good morning, and I still disagree with you. I don't see that there is any real evidence either way. But a real debate would be fine - "I know the truth and I can't tell you or you would lose the thrill of the chase" is NOT debate. This poll deals with only one issue. Polls are like that. You could set one up if you liked....
True that.
But, you can't have much of a debate without familiarity of subject. My impression of the history camp (as indicated by the polls) is that any discussion of an Egyptian origin theory is "More occulty/conspiracy theory babble". Hard to discuss with anyone unfamiliar with the context (i.e.- won't go through the constellations for themselves and thereby be able to formulate informed questions and statements).
I presented both evidence and theory that has since been removed - first, from the thread on that topic and into a box of its own; and soon, I am told, from this forum altogether.
Not much of a debate or discussion; more like censorship.
 

gregory

I'm all for occulty theory, and using Egyptian stuff and Qblh WITH the cards for those as chooses to, but I have read your posts, both before and after they were moved. I don't happen to agree with you. That does not IMHO make you right and me wrong - but in your book, it seems to.
 

Moonbow

Moderator Note

Yygdrasilian, please see my moderator note above.

Any further meta discussions, or comments on moderating action will be removed. As I said, please use PM for this.

Moonbow*
 

firecatpickles

I voted "no."

The problem I have with the Eliphas Levi system is twofold. One, he was a self-proclaimed Jew who did not go through any sort of conversion to Judaism. This is not cool. And two, he completely misunderstood the Kabbalistic numerological system.

The actual number of cards in the series is irrelevant because the Hewbrew numerological system is not as follows:

א =1
ב =2
ג =3
ד =4
ה =5
ו =6
ז =7
ח =8
ט =9
י =10
כ =11
ל =12
מ =13
נ =14
ס =15
ע =16
פ =17
צ =18
ק =19
ר =20
ש =12
ת =22

The correct system is this:

א =1
ב =2
ג =3
ד =4
ה =5
ו =6
ז =7
ח =8
ט =9
י =10
כ =20
ל =30
מ =40
נ =50
ס =60
ע =70
פ =80
צ =90
ק =100
ר =200
ש =300
ת =400