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Generally speaking, closely applying significators send the clearest message. If planets are applying with several degrees between them, there is a greater opportunity for another planet to interfere with the perfection of an aspect (or for a significator to leave a sign or house) than if only a degree or two were involved. So the closer significators are by degree to completing an aspect, the greater the opportunity for them to perfect the aspect. If they are within orb, they have already begun to influence one another (see below). If they are widely apart by degree, but will eventually perfect an aspect (before either of them leaves the signs and houses they are in), and no other planet fills the gap between them or aspects one of them first, that can be seen as a wide application which will eventually perfect in real time (as judged by the ephemeris). The farther apart significators are by degree, the greater the likelihood that we will find either translation or collection of light, or some form of interference in the completion of the aspect.

In traditional astrology, planets are considered to have something like an aura or radius of influence surrounding them - their orbs - and the half-point or moiety of their combined orbs is that point at which they begin to have direct effects on one another by aspect (i.e. they are then said to be "within orb" of one another). In traditional astrology, planets (not aspects) have orbs: the aspect is simply an angular relationship that describes the manner in which planets' orbs combine.

Planets' orbs vary in diameter. In Lilly's schema, the Sun has the widest orb at 17 degrees; next comes the Moon at 12.5, then Jupiter 12, Saturn 10, Venus 8, Mars 7.30 and Mercury 7. (Some other traditional astrologers assign different but similar orb values to the planets.)

To find out if significators are within orb, we add the number of degrees comprising each planet's orb and divide that number by two, arriving at their moiety - the point at which they begin to actively influence one another through the medium of an aspect. For example, Sun (17 degrees) plus Jupiter (12 degrees) equals 29 degrees; divided by two, we get 14.5 degrees. So when Jupiter and the Sun are within 14.5 degrees of forming an aspect, they are said to be within orb, and if they are applying we sit up and take notice of other conditions affecting them. It should be noted that, technically, a conjunction is not an aspect, but a bodily conjoining - though for ease of discussion, we often refer to the conjunction as an aspect.

This might be too much information, but at some point in the study of perfection you will need to have it.
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Minderwiz  Minderwiz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee View Post
No to both.
Shame because if your current Landlord had been a near neighbour, the chart would clearly be for the current neighbours, not the future ones. Coming back to the question, it really is one of those situations where the Astrologer needs to be fully clear as to the situation of the question. I really can see my original argument and Astraea's use of the fifth as both being valid depending on the precise circumstances of the question. If it relates solely and exclusively to the situation after you have moved there's a strong argument for the third being used for the new neighbours. If there's any comparison with or contrast to the existing neighbours, as Astraea infers, then you would need an additional significator for the new neighbours, either using the fifth house ruler, or using Mars as the ruler of the next sign.

I would normally follow the principle of using the fifth as the best house for the new neighbours in those circumstances but with the third cusp on the verge of entering Scorpio and Mars prominent in your first house I would be very tempted to use Mars. It's again one of those situations in which personal judgement does come into horary. It is not just following a set of rules in a slavish manner. All sets of rules (including the legal system) cannot cover every single instance that you can think up. That's why judges are needed in the legal system and why horary and natal Astrology were referred to as 'judicial' Astrology.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
I really can see my original argument and Astraea's use of the fifth as both being valid depending on the precise circumstances of the question. If it relates solely and exclusively to the situation after you have moved there's a strong argument for the third being used for the new neighbours....It's again one of those situations in which personal judgement does come into horary. It is not just following a set of rules in a slavish manner. All sets of rules (including the legal system) cannot cover every single instance that you can think up. That's why judges are needed in the legal system and why horary and natal Astrology were referred to as 'judicial' Astrology.
Amen to that! Your last sentence sums up the situation so well.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Astraea View Post
Generally speaking, closely applying significators send the clearest message. If planets are applying with several degrees between them, there is a greater opportunity for another planet to interfere with the perfection of an aspect (or for a significator to leave a sign or house) than if only a degree or two were involved. So the closer significators are by degree to completing an aspect, the greater the opportunity for them to perfect the aspect.
Thanks, that makes good sense.
Quote:
To find out if significators are within orb, we add the number of degrees comprising each planet's orb and divide that number by two, arriving at their moiety - the point at which they begin to actively influence one another through the medium of an aspect. For example, Sun (17 degrees) plus Jupiter (12 degrees) equals 29 degrees; divided by two, we get 14.5 degrees. So when Jupiter and the Sun are within 14.5 degrees of forming an aspect, they are said to be within orb, and if they are applying we sit up and take notice of other conditions affecting them.
Perfect! That's exactly the kind of information I was looking for.
Quote:
This might be too much information, but at some point in the study of perfection you will need to have it.
Not too much at all -- rather, the perfect amount!
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Maybe the reason Lee's chart presents such difficulties (re signification of the neighbors) is that two considerations before judgement are present - the Moon is in the last degree of the Via Combusta, and the Lord of the Ascendant is combust. Lilly warns that it is not safe to judge when the Moon is in the Via Combusta; and he says that if the Lord of the Ascendant is combust, the question as propounded will not "take."

Glad the aspect information fit the bill, Lee!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
All sets of rules (including the legal system) cannot cover every single instance that you can think up. That's why judges are needed in the legal system and why horary and natal Astrology were referred to as 'judicial' Astrology.
A very interesting analogy! And a good one for me as I work in the legal system.
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That's why I chose it
Top   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by idyll View Post
Awesome

I'll post my location/the time I finalize the question at here, so that if you'd prefer to draw the chart for that time you can.. I'll probably draw one for that time and at least try to walk through it at some point over the next day or 2. Once I do so, I'll post it

I was torn between 2 questions, but I think there's one that's taken more importance for me right now, which is:

Will M and I have any kind of relationship in the next 2 months (so by around mid April)?

Background for this: M and I were very close, and have fallen out of contact in the past month or so although the doors are still more or less open for communication (there's a history here of being a bit on/off in each others lifes). We used to be romantically involved, but more recently were trying to build more of a friendship.

By relationship in this circumstance I mean any kind of relationship that is stable and consistent, whether it be one of friendship or one that is more romantic. It could even be a friendship where we only meet up for coffee once a month to catch up.. as long as it's predictable/consistent and there is no longer a question if we are or are not a part of each other's lifes.

Hope that's enough details to make my question correct, if not just let me know

When I draw this chart, I'll be drawing it for 2:08PM, with the location being Waterloo, Ontario, Canada.
Okay.. I tried to pull this up on my own using Morinus, but I have gotten rather confused along the way.

I was able to pull up some of the info before Morinus got the better of me, so I think my main questions coming out of trying this are how to find any important information in Morinus that I may be missing, and also how to interpret all of the information together (I'm not completely sure where to start with that, even with what I do have).

Chart Info: Waterloo, Ontario, Canada (4328′N 8031′W) at 14:08, GMT -5, no daylight savings

Significators:
For me, 1st house, Moon in Scorpio in the 5th
For M I used the 7th house for relationships/partners, Saturn in Libra in the 5th

Does it mean anything that both significators are in the same house?

Dignities
Admittedly, I got a bit confused trying to look these up, I used the Almutens -> Points option in Morinus, but I'm pretty sure I probably missed something while doing this.

From my best guess I think Moon is Peregrine which would be -5

and Saturn would be
+ 4 for being exalted
+ 3 for being in its own triplicity

Would I also look at the planets that rule the sign that the significators are in? Also, how would I know what the accidental dignities would be?

There are not aspects that directly connect the Moon/Saturn.

So this is as far as I got before getting a bit overwhelmed. I'm not sure how/where in Morinus to look to tell if there are other dignities involved here, or how to interpret even the ones that I have.

I know Minderwiz mentioned in one of the charts that Lilly allows for two other significators (Sun/Venus) to be used in relationship questions, would I use those here? If so, how do I connect them back create an overall view of the question?
Top   #138
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Preliminary Comments


Thanks for the post, Idyll.

Before I go into any real detail I need to check the chart with you. I'm fairly sure you set the chart for 13 February 2012 and the remaining details are as given in your post above.

When I cast a chart for that date and the time and place given by you in the post above, I get the house positions that you describe and also with the Moon still in the fifth house, I'm sure it's not a day later (or even earlier). However can you please confirm that for me, as I don't want to do a reading based on an erroneous chart. I've attached a copy so you can double check that all is well.

Yes it has some significance that both significators are in the fith but probably no more than you are interested in a romance and M is the potential 'object' of your affections. However that does mean that the chart describes the situation (at least in so far as it conforms with what the subject of the question).

If the chart I cast is correct:

You are right, your significator is the Moon in the fifth House.

You are right, M's significator is Saturn also in the House

For the essential dignities you do use the table on almuten of the points, so again you are right.

Your score for Saturn's essential dignities is correct (4+3=7) M is very attractive (in terms of this question)

Your score for the Moon is not quite right, and this is due to Morinus giving an incomplete account in it's table. Morinus does not really handle the essential debilities of Detriment and Fall in any explicit manner. In this case The Moon is in Scorpio, the opposite sign to it's exaltation in Taurus. Thus the Moon is in Fall. Now that scores -4 (detriment would be -5 as it's the opposite sign to the planet's rulership - for the Moon that is Capricorn).

It could still be peregrine but to ensure it is so, Morinus forces you to check the table for any planet, in which the Moon has dignity. In this case those are Mars (5+3), Venus (2) and the Sun (1) as there is no planet that is exalted in Scorpio) there is no planet that scores 4. For each of these three planets, we need to check whether any one of them is in a dignity of the Moon. To do this you check to see if there's any score for these planets in the Moon's column. There is no score for Mars or Venus but there is a score for the Sun - 1 - What we have here is a mutual reception - the Sun and Moon are in one of each other's dignities . In this case a mutual reception by Face and that is very weak. Indeed the only thing it adds to the Moon is that it stops it being peregrine.

So the Moon's final score is -4 (in Fall) + 1 (mutual reception by Face) = -3. All that has done is to make the Moon slightly better off than your estimate but it's not really going to have a major influence here. The Moon is weak in essential dignity.

To me this calculation is a pain - other programs, such as Solar Fire, automatically detect mutual receptions and automatically score Detriment or Fall. So I think I might well email the authors of Morinus to see if that can be remedied. As I wouldn't particularly advise you to go out and spend a lot of $$$$$ on an expensive program you can use the table in Skyscript to check for Detriment and Fall. Even so, that will not automatically show mutual receptions.

There is no general need to look at the planets which rule the significators, though Mars for you and Venus for her aptly describes the situation of the question.

For the accidental dignities, most programs are a pain. Only Janus seems to do an automatic calculation. So you are again confined to using the table on Skyscript

The following article contains both tables together with an excellent summary of the essential dignities

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dignities.html

For Accidental dignities the following (in order) are worth considering as a beginner:

House placement - both planets are in the fifth house (a succeedent house and one that trines the ascendant) and both score +3


Retrograde or Direct - Saturn is retrograde (-5) whereas the Moon is direct (normally this scores +5 but as the Moon cannot be retrograde I don't bother adding it into the score)

Close Aspects from benefics or malefics - Lilly uses only partile aspects here but the scoring allows you to give weaker aspects a score. However in this case there are no such aspects.

Later on you can add in the other accidental dignities due to the Sun/planet phase cycle, of these being combust or under the beams is perhaps the easiest to use because it signifies a difficulty in seeing and being seen.

You did very well in identifying the significators and their essential dignities. You've rightly identified that there's no applying aspect between Moon and Saturn.

We are left then with the following issues the first two of which are easily dealt with:

Is there any connection through translation or collection of light. The answer is no because the Moon is the fastest planet. so no other planet can aspect Saturn and then catch up with the Moon. Also Saturn is the slowest planet so no other planet will be aspected by the Moon and then wait for Saturn. In this case Saturn is retrograde so it's moving away from the Moon anyway.

Is there any connection between Moon and Saturn through antisica - No as both are in the same sign.

That leaves the issue you mentioned at the end of your post, can we use Venus and Sun as additional significators. Now if you had said stable romantic relationship, then I would answer yes - but you rather diluted your question by saying:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Idyll
By relationship in this circumstance I mean any kind of relationship that is stable and consistent, whether it be one of friendship or one that is more romantic. It could even be a friendship where we only meet up for coffee once a month to catch up.. as long as it's predictable/consistent and there is no longer a question if we are or are not a part of each other's lifes.
This relationship includes just being friends and I don't think the use of Sun and Venus is intended for 'friendships'. So you need to be clear in your intention - are you looking for romance (in which case we can try the additional significators) or are you looking for friendship (in which case they are not used). You have to be brutally honest with yourself here - if 'friendship' is simply to be near someone you have strong romantic desire for then we can use the additions. But a no answer means that you can't have a simple relationship of friendship (i.e. with no romantic feelings on your part).

Assuming the chart is correct and it's definitely romance that you are interested in, then I can go ahead and read for those additional significators.

Either way I'll do a summary of the reading for the chart, assuming it is correct.
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Thanks for taking the time to go through all this Minderwiz!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
Thanks for the post, Idyll.

Before I go into any real detail I need to check the chart with you. I'm fairly sure you set the chart for 13 February 2012 and the remaining details are as given in your post above.

When I cast a chart for that date and the time and place given by you in the post above, I get the house positions that you describe and also with the Moon still in the fifth house, I'm sure it's not a day later (or even earlier). However can you please confirm that for me, as I don't want to do a reading based on an erroneous chart. I've attached a copy so you can double check that all is well.
The chart you posted is the same as what I have


Quote:
Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
It could still be peregrine but to ensure it is so, Morinus forces you to check the table for any planet, in which the Moon has dignity. In this case those are Mars (5+3), Venus (2) and the Sun (1) as there is no planet that is exalted in Scorpio) there is no planet that scores 4. For each of these three planets, we need to check whether any one of them is in a dignity of the Moon. To do this you check to see if there's any score for these planets in the Moon's column. There is no score for Mars or Venus but there is a score for the Sun - 1 - What we have here is a mutual reception - the Sun and Moon are in one of each other's dignities . In this case a mutual reception by Face and that is very weak. Indeed the only thing it adds to the Moon is that it stops it being peregrine.

So the Moon's final score is -4 (in Fall) + 1 (mutual reception by Face) = -3. All that has done is to make the Moon slightly better off than your estimate but it's not really going to have a major influence here. The Moon is weak in essential dignity.

To me this calculation is a pain - other programs, such as Solar Fire, automatically detect mutual receptions and automatically score Detriment or Fall. So I think I might well email the authors of Morinus to see if that can be remedied. As I wouldn't particularly advise you to go out and spend a lot of $$$$$ on an expensive program you can use the table in Skyscript to check for Detriment and Fall. Even so, that will not automatically show mutual receptions.
Thanks for clearing that up, you're right it would be a lot easier to have a program that does that automatically but since I'm only just getting into this it's not really worth spending a lot on a program for that.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
That leaves the issue you mentioned at the end of your post, can we use Venus and Sun as additional significators. Now if you had said stable romantic relationship, then I would answer yes - but you rather diluted your question by saying:


This relationship includes just being friends and I don't think the use of Sun and Venus is intended for 'friendships'. So you need to be clear in your intention - are you looking for romance (in which case we can try the additional significators) or are you looking for friendship (in which case they are not used). You have to be brutally honest with yourself here - if 'friendship' is simply to be near someone you have strong romantic desire for then we can use the additions. But a no answer means that you can't have a simple relationship of friendship (i.e. with no romantic feelings on your part).

Assuming the chart is correct and it's definitely romance that you are interested in, then I can go ahead and read for those additional significators.

Either way I'll do a summary of the reading for the chart, assuming it is correct.
You're right - I did dilute the question.
I am primarily interested in a romantic relationship with him.
Top   #140




 


 


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