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Umbrae's Relationship Spread Study

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Umbrae
Reprise:
Ususally The Magician is seen as a card of control. He brought control to the Relationship? He Feels control? Let’s dig deeper. Here, hold the flashlight while I explore.

The Magician is something Person 2 is dragging around. Why? Usually it’s because somewhere just before, they felt stepped on, used abused and tossed out. They got hurt. And they were ‘innocent’. “If he/whe/it only understood me! I tried and they got walked over me and broke my heart! And I’ll never ever ever let that happen again. I’m in control now…” The problem is that The Magician stands alone.

The 5 of Pentacles in the Needs/Wants/Now area. Okay…so the LWB talks about poverty but we are discussing feelings. Thinking of Fives as Givurah, this card, in this space, is about self induced punishment. It’s a dark card here – unresolved issues of the past would be strongly indicated IMHO.
The 5 of Pentacles also represents lonliness and a sense of loss which touches the emotional side of things. I used the RWS deck btw, and I'm referring to the book "Tarot for Beginners" by P.Scott Hollander...I'm trying to wipe what I know of this relationship and the people involved OUT of my mind...Bottom line...it's not a "happy" card and what I'm understanding is that Person 2 is absolutely miserable because of self infliction? Taking control of a situation (her decisions and life) and throwing it into something that NOW, she feels lost and alone and not understood?


Quote:
Now let’s start putting this together.

Look at Person 1 & 2’s root cards. 1 was indecision, with a necessity to choose and a feeling that one had to do so quickly (perhaps a fear element). “Did I choose correctly?” is their yoke.

Person 2 emotionally distant, controlling or self willed attitudes were a perfect match – they balanced.
I don't understand where you see a balance.
One is in it because they jumped too fast, the other is in it for the sense of being able to control her own life....I don't see balance. I'm trying to see how you are intertwining the cards of person 1 and person 2 here to create what is "balance". Unless you are taking say person 2's Magician and balancing it with the Emperor and not referring to Person 1 at all at this point.

Quote:
They balance on The Emperor. Now The Emperor one half of an entity. The Emperor needs the Empress. The Emperor is tired of being a warrior; he cannot be a warrior and rule. He is about disciplining his baser desires.

The Emperor ‘binds’ the two well. He is also about metaphorically ‘slowing down’. Good for both Persons 1 & 2.
Where do you get the connection that it is good for person 2 to slow down?


Quote:
You know how most of us read from left to right? We number from left to right? Change that.
When do we apply this? From the start?


Quote:
Here. When reading across – read from the Strong Card. Outside row only.

Person One is the 3 of Cups. Cool card. Well Person 1 knows she wants to know she chose right…. Between you and I that’s a need. She’s gotta be able to dance. We have a harvest festival, a Martyr, and The World.

Here, the Tarot tells us we have a balance. So let’s let it sit for a bit and we’ll come back to it. It won’t go anywere, it’ll wait.
Again...I don't see what "balance" you are referring to and how you determine that there is one...a balance with what? with who? Person 2? or a balance with the cards 3 of Cups and The World?

Quote:
Here I where it gets fun. And I have to color these cards a bit.
I'm still way up there...I'm confused in a very big way.

Quote:
We have the penitent as Person 1. It’s like Person 2 was contagious.
Because of the Magician? (Self control)..and Person 2 kept her distance so not to be hurt again? But again, this is part of the Magician and her self control...yes? no?...sigh

Quote:
The emotion crosses over. 8 lies on Hod, and swords are intellect. This is a card of thinking gone awry – thinking that has gone out of balance. Here is delusion – but because of the timeline (Future/Expected Outcome) this card serves as a warning.
So this ties into card #1 for Person 1 (VII of Cups) yes?

Quote:
The 2 of Swords. I love this card. It’s so deep. There is a sense of mastery to this card, as a balance for the 8 of Swords it’s wonderful and scary. There is a satisfaction from Person 2 that they were indeed contagious, not from a maliciousness on their part but from a misunderstanding of the true potential of love.
Wouldn't that tie into the 5 of Pentacles....Person 2 feels lonely yet needs to be alone to heal so she can receive true love, perhaps not with Person 1 but with someone else in the future?

Quote:
They balance off the balance of Justice – they both believe and feel they got what they deserved.
I'm lost...this Raven is totally hanging in a tree upside down...



Quote:
Look at those last three cards – if Person 2 uses their mastery with the swords to help rescue Person 1 – If Person 2 realized what they have done/are doing to Person 2…and they can’t be told…they wear a blind fold (hey – it covers their ears…).
I'm slightly confused here....just a tad..ahem...you are saying that Person 1 is a victim of Person 2's control (magician) of her own life? I'm trying to see where you are taking referrence yet all I am getting is alot of crossing this way and that way. Because I'm pulling the control thing from way up top at the Magician?
Top   #21
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Whoah!!

Good stuff, here.

I have used this spread a couple of times and love it.

I haven't read the cards in isolation as columns and then across as rows.

I wish I could remember one I did recently. It was at work for a colleague, but I also got the Magician in Column 3, Position one...but in the case of the reading I did, in relationship to the other cards and their down AND across meanings, I saw the Magician, here, as potential for this new person that my sitter had just met. So, in my reading, the Magician took on its meaning because of it was a trump and because of the other cards.

Darn! I wish I wrote it down. If I follow what Umbrae is saying and has said about this spread, one has to look at all ten cards and then the positions and interrelationships step forward. It isn't a "neat" 1,2, 3 kind of read, but an overall look at the "power" cards and the positions in which they fall, and then, the interaction based on the "power" cards.

Umbrae, am I making any sense? Anyhow, I've only used the spread several times, but I really like it because it brings out complexities that exist between the people and within the relationship as a "unit." The "formula" Umbrae gives, as I have used it, is intended to supply a framework, but it result is more like a three-dimensional matrix....Don't know if I've got it "right" or not, but so far my sitters have loved it, and once I look at all the cards out, the beginning isn't always with the first column. At least that's not what happened when I looked at all the cards.

I do remember, also, that person 2 was someone new just met by my sitter, and my sitter had just gotten divorced this summer after only months of a marriage. So just knowing this, affected my take on the cards as well.

My person two...also had a Chevalier in position two and The Emperor in position three...and I remember the Page of Swords in Probable outcome....with my seeing this Page as the Wonder Child of Air...the apprentince...that maybe they needed to let some of the early feelings and intitial contacts play themselves through...

My sitter had a Queen and the High Priestess, too, I remember...it was way cool the way it came together. I wish I had recorded it now, or that she had taken notes.



terri

Will be following this particular reading to learn more.
This is a marvelous spread and I believe one I will come to love greatly as a relationship spread, once I feel I have some confidence with it. The first two I did felt as though they went well and my sitters were quite pleased with the reading and gave me good followup feedback.
Top   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tmgrl2
Whoah!!

Good stuff, here.

I have used this spread a couple of times and love it.

I haven't read the cards in isolation as columns and then across as rows.

I wish I could remember one I did recently. It was at work for a colleague, but I also got the Magician in Column 3, Position one...but in the case of the reading I did, in relationship to the other cards and their down AND across meanings, I saw the Magician, here, as potential for this new person that my sitter had just met. So, in my reading, the Magician took on its meaning because of it was a trump and because of the other cards.

Darn! I wish I wrote it down. If I follow what Umbrae is saying and has said about this spread, one has to look at all ten cards and then the positions and interrelationships step forward. It isn't a "neat" 1,2, 3 kind of read, but an overall look at the "power" cards and the positions in which they fall, and then, the interaction based on the "power" cards.

Umbrae, am I making any sense? Anyhow, I've only used the spread several times, but I really like it because it brings out complexities that exist between the people and within the relationship as a "unit." The "formula" Umbrae gives, as I have used it, is intended to supply a framework, but it result is more like a three-dimensional matrix....Don't know if I've got it "right" or not, but so far my sitters have loved it, and once I look at all the cards out, the beginning isn't always with the first column. At least that's not what happened when I looked at all the cards.

terri

Will be following this to learn more.
See now I see the Magician as "assertiveness" and taking control of one's life in this situation...probably because I know the background of the relationship being used here. But it sure doesn't make it easier to figure it out when you do know....and you're sitting on your side of the screen saying no..no..no..that's not like this person or that person...then I gotta remember that I'm not suppose to know that ...righ? I'm now thinking about your Avatar Terri and this "Raven" sure could tuck herself right under that massive wing of the Eagle....
Top   #23
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Not under my wings, Raven....we fly side by side here.

I remember now that it was the Queen of Swords that my sitter had...it was perfect in the position it was in, since I could focus on the need for her to realize that she didn't have all the answers yet, just because she had been married and he hadn't, but that the HP had more for her beyond the veil, and that the focus for my sitter should be on what she needed to learn for ANY relationship that she didn't yet know.

The new man had never been married, so from the cards I saw him as wanting to jump into the relationship but as one who had less experience emotionally but who could learn if given the opportunity. My sitter needed to get out of her head and go with the flow at the outset, trusting that she would make good decisions as they went along.

It can help or not to know some background. Again, if we do happen to have a relationship with the sitter or know them, then the reading will work in that fashion because of what we know and because of the cards drawn.

If we know nothing, of course, the meanings can be different.

I feel this is one of the greatest gifts Umbrae has given to me here as a learner...especially in The Process articles. It's the concept that you just can't go in knowing EXACTLY what those positions are going to mean. Sometimes they are factors in the sitter's subconscious that they may go "Aha" when they hear them, sometimes the may relate to issues they are leaving behind.

The difficulty and beauty of a CC which I rarely do, but also love, is the even the simple Card 1 & 2 are not
necessarily simply Present and Covering factors which I often see people use...and then interpret as exactly that.

Sometimes, e.g., the first card refers to internal factors or outer, environmental factors or worries or problems or a central issue, or state of mind or emotional state.

Again, it depends upon the cards drawn and whether they are Trumps or pips and the positions and their interrelationships.

Then Card 2 can have a whole range of meanings from oppositional factors, to reinforcing elements. Could be a surprise or related issue or a force that is throwing things off balance. I never know until I see the cards and THEN it becomes much "clearer."

So, when you consider that Umbrae's relationship spread, like the CC, has ten cards, it's a great read, but one that forms a gestalt once the cards are out.



Ok, Umbrae, over to you.

terri
Top   #24
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A question about the second column: I'm trying to get a grasp on what the relationship "needs"--to succeed? To fulfill the needs of the partners as displayed in column 1 and 3? To move each of them forward in some way, whether or not they stay together?

I can understand the core and expectations for the relationship, but not what it, as an entity, needs. And given that the card in this example is the World, which to me says end of a cycle of growth, successful leaping forward, -- this relationship needs . . . what?

Is this card a little incredulous? --"Boy to succeed, this relationship needs *everything*--the World!"
Top   #25
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Cool


There is also the aspect that perhaps, at his point in time…the relationship as it is…is what is best for both parties?

Remember that center card is a Want/Need/Is (present).

Of course they are going to rebel against that statement…but do the spiritual, and the emotional always make sense at the time or though the reflection of the past?

Here, The World is a transition card – it’s not an ‘ending’ in meaning simply because it is the end of a numerical sequence.

I want to address WhiteRaven’s question about balance between The Magician, the 7 of Cups, and the Emperor.

The Cups are the suit of water. On your RWS deck, the figure looks at cups in the clouds. I tend to think of this as the ‘cloud card’. The posture of the figure is to be noted – it’s not seated, it’s not pondering, it’s hand is outstretched about to grasp one of the cups. There is a lightness of the clouds, and an anxiety from the figure – a space between them – and an implied interaction between figure and cloud.

The Magician stands seemingly in command. But look at him. He’s too young; he’s surrounded by so much Divine Wisdom (yellow) he’s clumsy, off balance…(look at all that blank space on the right side of the card where your eye wants to go…nothing’s there!). Why…he’s just an apprentice! A newbie! He THINKS he’s in command! It’s a young card – a I. He’s simply an initiate, and not the all powerful….

They both have this New Airy Quality to them. Although The Magician may be a ‘stronger’ card, it does not feel ‘heavier’.

The Emperor in the middle. He provides a calming effect to the 7 of Pentacles and The Magician both. It is a ‘heavier’ card. Earthy almost. He calms the chaos around him.
Top   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteRaven
Just because this post has landed itself a tad far from my first post I will repost the spread....

WhiteRaven can hear sighs of relief from some far off corner of the forum...

Ok...this is to try and learn Umbrae's Relationship Spread.
I've pulled some cards for the purpose of learning this.
I've asked the moderators where would be the best place to post this and they directed me in the Study Group/General section of the Forum.


First Column - Person 1

VII of Cups
III of Cups
VIII of Swords


Second Column

Emperor
World
Justice
II of Pents


Third column - Person 2

Magician
V of Pentacles
II of Swords

I think we start with Person 1...right?

So if I were to read this column then it would be from top to bottom.

So what I see here is Person 1 is disillusional about the said relationship and they are not seeing the reality of it. They aren't getting what they expect from it and are in denial. The III of Cups says that what she needs at this point is friendship and the VIII of Swords basically is saying that she's becoming or is in a depression. This resulting from the disillusions and not seeing the reality of the said relationship...

Am I getting this?

bumping this post

but I will add that I'm still VERY confused and that's quite the understatement.
Top   #27
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Cool


Well first off, let’s take a good look at the reading itself, then examine parts that are accurate and those that are not.

Since you (WhiteRaven) know the parties, just do summery excerpts with comments like “Applicable” “Way off” “Dead on” etc.

Then we can start looking deeper as to the ‘how we got there’.

Thanks!
Top   #28
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Got it!
Top   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Umbrae
Reprise:




I’ll try to stick close to accepted LWB meanings for learning purposes. However it’s impossible for me to not color accepted meanings with my own take on cards (which I will try to explain). And I have to state this because here we have The Magician, in the Feels/Brings or Brought to the Relationship space.

Boy oh boy…

Ususally The Magician is seen as a card of control. He brought control to the Relationship? He Feels control? Let’s dig deeper. Here, hold the flashlight while I explore.

The Magician is something Person 2 is dragging around. Why? Usually it’s because somewhere just before, they felt stepped on, used abused and tossed out. They got hurt. And they were ‘innocent’. “If he/whe/it only understood me! I tried and they got walked over me and broke my heart! And I’ll never ever ever let that happen again. I’m in control now…” The problem is that The Magician stands alone.

Dead on

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


The 5 of Pentacles in the Needs/Wants/Now area. Okay…so the LWB talks about poverty but we are discussing feelings. Thinking of Fives as Givurah, this card, in this space, is about self induced punishment. It’s a dark card here – unresolved issues of the past would be strongly indicated IMHO.

Dead on plus more....

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Now let’s start putting this together.

Look at Person 1 & 2’s root cards. 1 was indecision, with a necessity to choose and a feeling that one had to do so quickly (perhaps a fear element). DEAD ON “Did I choose correctly?” is their yoke. APPLICABLE but could touch two different issues.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Person 2 emotionally distant, DEAD ON controlling Way offor self willed attitudesDEAD ON were a perfect match – they balanced.?????

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


They balance on The Emperor. Now The Emperor one half of an entity. The Emperor needs the Empress. The Emperor is tired of being a warrior; he cannot be a warrior and rule. He is about disciplining his baser desires.

The Emperor ‘binds’ the two well. He is also about metaphorically ‘slowing down’. Good for both Persons 1 & 2.

You know how most of us read from left to right? We number from left to right? Change that.

Here. When reading across – read from the Strong Card. Outside row only.

We always read towards the center. The Center Row is the relationship. It exists as its own entity and yet as a result of the persons involved. So we look for the strongest Person card.

Row One was The Magicin in Column Three.

Row two is the Dark Card. The 5 of Pentacles. Does Person 2 need to punish themselves? They sure feel they do. But it’s a want. A guilt. It’s paired with The Magician. WAY OFF
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Person One is the 3 of Cups. Cool card. Well Person 1 knows she wants to know she chose right…. Between you and I that’s a need. She’s gotta be able to dance. We have a harvest festival, a Martyr, and The World.WAY OFF yet that is a need that we all carry in a relationship anyways.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Here, the Tarot tells us we have a balance. So let’s let it sit for a bit and we’ll come back to it. It won’t go anywere, it’ll wait.????don't see balance
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Here I where it gets fun. And I have to color these cards a bit.

We have the penitent as Person 1. It’s like Person 2 was contagious. The emotion crosses over. 8 lies on Hod, and swords are intellect. This is a card of thinking gone awry – thinking that has gone out of balance. Here is delusion – but because of the timeline (Future/Expected Outcome) this card serves as a warning.?????
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


The 2 of Swords. I love this card. It’s so deep. There is a sense of mastery to this card, as a balance for the 8 of Swords it’s wonderful and scary. There is a satisfaction from Person 2 that they were indeed contagious, not from a maliciousness on their part but from a misunderstanding of the true potential of love.I'm not grasping this concept of being contagious. So I would have to say Way Off...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


They balance off the balance of Justice – they both believe and feel they got what they deserved.Person 1 - Way Off, Person 2 applicable
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


A lot of majors here – this is a strong strong layout.

But will it work? Will it be a good relationship?

It sure can be. If both parties understand their past, it can serve as a good foundation. Person 2 is the key.

Look at those last three cards – if Person 2 uses their mastery with the swords to help rescue Person 1 – If Person 2 realized what they have done/are doing to Person 2…and they can’t be told…they wear a blind fold (hey – it covers their ears…).Person 1 got fair warning before it got too far...so they both could be wearing the blind fold.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Outcome…the Juggler…the 2 of Pentacles. It’s a difficult balance DEAD ON
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


– not without possibilities – but not without serious work. A good ship with a good crew can weather sever storms if they work together to reef the sails.
I think this is what Umbrae has been waiting for and I misunderstood. Thank you ImageMaker for helping me understand better.
Top   #30




 


 


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