What type of person is this....

dadsnook2000

For ncefafn

Two issues:

First, thank you for agreeing to continue in our interpretive partnership. You should certainly question or discuss anything I put forward since I am not always correct in an assessment. There are many "truths."

Second, perhaps you could share with me what the name "ncefafn" means. I am really curious about that. Dave
 

ncefafn

dadsnook2000 said:
Two issues:

First, thank you for agreeing to continue in our interpretive partnership. You should certainly question or discuss anything I put forward since I am not always correct in an assessment. There are many "truths."

Second, perhaps you could share with me what the name "ncefafn" means. I am really curious about that. Dave

NCEFAFN=Not Cool Enough For A Funky Nickname. In reasonable circles, I am known as Kim. :)

Okay, so on with the astrology. At first, I didn't think there was any relationship between the Moon and Saturn, and then I did the math and noticed that there is a semi-square there. If squares are tension, I think of semi-squares as a burr in one's britches. It's just niggling irritation, suggesting there may have been some underlying, unspoken tension in the childhood home between the parents.

With the Moon and Saturn in the 8th and 7th houses, respectively, this niggling tension could well carry over into his romantic relationships, specifically, his long-term commitments. I read Saturn in the 7th as a fear of commitment and marriage.

I've never had a really good grasp of the 8th house. I know it rules occult studies, other people's money, insurance, taxes, death, but I have difficulty incorporating those things into a reading. What I tend to fall back on is Zipporah Dobyns key number system, linking the 8th house with Scorpio. So I read the Moon in the 8th as needing deep connections. Perhaps he had an intense bond with his mother, picking up empathically on her emotions as a child. Any tension she felt , he would have felt too, which might thus discourage him from marrying.

I'm having a hard time reconciling Moon in Leo with Moon in the 8th house. Leo is playful, sunny, dramatic and fun-loving (also proud). The 8th house is intense and somewhat secretive. I don't know how to synthesize those two polarities.

I was going to try to analyze the 4th and 10th houses, but that looked like a "down the rabbit hole" situation to me, so I backed off. Someone else can take a whack at that.
 

dadsnook2000

Saturn and Moon relationship in this chart

In our physical culture, Saturn represents our accepted limits, our fears and boundaries that others set for us, the authority figure(s) in early life and role that we see them performing ("that we see" is often different from what they do). Moon plays its role in connection with Saturn (Moon has a connection with every planet) as conditioning, as an early/youthful itdentity. Moon is also our habit patterns, our memory, our sense of the past, our primary needs. So, there is a lot of potential for personal disruption between these two astrological symbols.

I'm going to start my comments with looking at Saturn and Moon in terms of their PHASE ANGLE RELATIONSHIP. I would note that the archive section has a great number of presentations by me using Phase Angles where the slowest moving planet is seen as the anchor planet, the faster moving body as the expressive planet. Dane Rudhyar wrote a book called the Lunation Cycle which layed out the concept of eight phases for the Moon in relation to the Sun. Marc Robertson picked up on these phase relationships and then developed a concept using eight pairs of planets that could be used to paint a portrait of any chart owner.

Saturn at 18 Gemini in the 7th house is the anchor point. Moon at 2 Leo in the 8th house is very close to being 45 degrees (1/8th of a circle) ahead of Saturn. This second 45 degree segment between 45 and 90 degrees is the Crescent Phase, a phase that represents struggle. Permit me to quote in part from Marc Robertson's book, The Engine of Destiny.

"Your great struggle in life will be to adopt an identity that will take you out of the past and put you on the road to the future. This will be . . . a struggle because you aims, and the methods you've been taught are often antagonistic to one another." Remember the earlier issues I raised about the duality in this person's character?

". . . you have to be flexible in adapting your methods . . . the past will often make impossible your real goals . . . . it may take a new time, a new face, and surely a new attitude to become more flexible in life." At the start of this phase angle, life will seem to force you to make adjustments because the old, learned way of life is just not working.

SATURN IN THE 7th signifies a rigid approach to partnerships, perhaps even a refusal or reluctance to grow through these relationships. Saturn isn't at home in this sign, not liking the implied changing nature that Gemini suggests. The 7th house has all of the symbolic meanings related to its opposition to the Ascendant (experiences): Partners, marriage, opposition, enemies, controversy, disagreement. The pressures of our culture seem to make it easier to adopt the negative connotations.

MOON IN THE 8th signifies a need to get what one feels they deserve. I see the 8th as being the house of unequal sharing. One always want's the best of the bargain. Being the second house of the partner's (7th house) house, the 8th signifies the resources of others, resources shared, resources that may come through gains by inheritance as well as resources that may have to be given away due to taxes or lawsuits. We see money traded for sex when a younger woman marries an older man, we see legalities employed to gain advantage over another, we see murder or theft to take the possessions of another. No wonder the 8th house is seen as a dark and very unfriendly place. The Moon likes dependable situations inspite of its own changeableness. If it changes, it can only deal with change if other things stay relatively constant. The Moon remembers. The Moon needs. In the 8th the Moon may develop a greedy side or an unreasonable demand for assurance or guarantee from another. This is a bad place for the Moon.

So, how does one find their own, natural, best-for-them identity? How does one trust another, find someone who will be stable for them? How much can one demand from a relationship without having to give as much back? If this person, this chart, has to give back, what can it offer in trade? IF WE CAN ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS WE WILL HAVE THE KEY TO UNDERSTANDING THE WHOLE CHART.

At this point, I will leave it up in the air so that EVERYONE can discuss this chart and this Saturn-Moon dilemma as if it was separate from the rest of the chart. Ncefafn will, I'm sure, be forward enough to comment on this. It would be supportive of what this list is trying to do in terms of learning, if others would also comment. Dave
 

Minderwiz

I've tried to keep out of the discussion for several reasons;

Firstly I've been quite busy recently with family things and secondly because I also had difficulty reading the small chart (a combination of old age and already poor eyesight LOL). I'm not going to give a reading because I think that will stifle discussion, as I think Dave recognised in his previous post. Instead I'll draw attention to a number of factors that I'd attach importance too (without being in anyway precise)

I'll start with a 'by the way' point BTW if someone doesn't want you to disclose their natal details then I'd stear clear of posting their chart, as that DOES give their details - I'll not reveal them, as clearly that would betray information given to you in confidence.

Dave drew attantion to the first house planets - I agree wholeheartedly with his distinction between planets on the Ascendant and planets IN the first house. So we have a Scorpio Ascendant, ruled by Mars in the eleventh (but near the cusp of the twelfth - indeed in the twelfth in some house systems. Mars rules the twelfth.

Mars is also in an applying conjunction with Venus, ruler of the seventh. There are clearly a number of possibe interpretations of this, romance with friends, secret affairs, are possibles.

Returning to the first house - we have Sun and Mercury (I'll ignore Neptune but Dave gave a fairly standard interpretation of the role of Neptune). Mercury rules the MC, so career and social status are given additional importance from Mercury's angular position. Mercury has an important role - but is it fit to carry the role out? Essentially it is in detriment in Sagittarius, it is also Retrograde, Combust and oriental. I'm not sure that this person would be creative, or at least succesfully creative. The first house is the body, so does this person express themselves more using body language (especiay the hands) than verbal formulations? Do they have to work at expressing themselves effectively (for exampe through stammering) though by their current age that may well be something that has been overcome.

Virgo careers tend to be office workers, accountants, mid-level managers and planners - Is this a career that you think would work well for this person?

Seventh house Saturn is ruled by Mercury, and again gives us a planet in an angular house but not in the same sign. Does Saturn give a strengthening to relationships and more permanance and structure or are we dealing with a weak Saturn that perhaps symbolises fear and an unwillingness to commit?

Saturn also squares the MC - what stress does Saturn bring to this person's career?

The Moon clearly also has a significant importance, trining Sun and Mercury but squaring Venus and Mars. How will the Moon colour the way this person interacts with others?

Of course one thing that has not been considered is the underlying temperament and how the above will modify that temperament.

One final point for people to consider as a background issue to the discussion - How would knowledge of Progressions and Directions modify our picture?
 

dadsnook2000

Summary to this point

Up to this point we have many conflicting patterns. Lets review what we have found so that we don't lose our way.

** Sun, Neptune, Mercury in 1st house indicated sensitivity, a lack of focus, imagination, dreams, a love of drama, one who doesn't get it.

** Venus, Mars square Moon indicated a emotional person whose romantic views often clashed with emotional needs. Perhaps a strong temper evident.

** Sun, Moon relationship sought to be open with others, led a role-model life. But, Pluto at the mid-poin pointed to a lot of inner conflict.

** Saturn and Moon relationship points to a struggle to live with and move away from early conditioning.

There is a lot more detail given in previous posts, but the above listing does pick up on most of the main points. There is more that could be said about any of the above patterns, and everyone is free to bring up what they see.

"ncefafn", the actually cool lady from the woods, had indicated in her last post that the MC-IC axis was something she didn't want to touch, equating it to Alice jumping down the rabbit hole. BUT, that is just what we want to pursue next. If Saturn-Moon paints how we deal with early conditioning, the nature of the 4-10 axis, signs and rulers will paint a picture of what that environment might have been. If we know that, we can speculate on the nature of the home and early training as well as how this individual is having problems living with those past days and expectations.

So, lets march off and look at the 4-10 axis. This should be easy and anyone may choose to join in. In fact, if you don't, then 214red may cry a bit out of frustration over this learning group that is coming together. Dave
 

214red

i might cry but not because of the lack of participation, i injured my back yesterday so i am stuck at home unable to really move...so its been enjoyable reading the discussion on the chart.

i can see that perhaps we do need to make sure in the study group we include examples of charts to illistrate how to apply what we have learnt. I also think astrology is sometimes easy to learn the parts, but putting it together is another issue.

part of me thinks seeing this discussion if we had a test chart to review at the end of each thread we would gain more insight.
 

Minderwiz

Hope you are OK!!

Yes chart exercises are a good idea, but the issue is getting people to comment. Keeping it focused is the key, maybe one or two issues at most, then later on we can turn the attention to integration, though (and this is a rather heretical statement) it's somewhat over-rated.

Study group members have to learn to walk before they can run, so don't worry too much about putting it all together, that will come later
 

214red

i like to run before i can walk, hence i am stuck in bed with an ice pack on my back...lol
 

ncefafn

Taking a stab at it

Virgo and Pisces are on the 10th/4th cusps, respectively. Their rulers, Mercury and Neptune are both conjunct the Sun. My guess from this would be that his childhood home was dominated by his father, with the mother looking to her husband for confirmation of her parenting decisions. With the Sun, Mercury and Neptune in the client's first house, his father had a big influence on the development of the client's personality.
 

Minderwiz

214red said:
i like to run before i can walk, hence i am stuck in bed with an ice pack on my back...lol

This is not the weather to run in LOL