Study Notes: Chrisitan Astrology

RohanMenon

Lilly gives a new batch of questions and procedures to judge them.
I'm puzzled because these questions don't really have much to do with each other.

In the previous example "whether he shall live long yea or not" and the prediction of immediate happenings in the past and future of the querent, and 'which part of the country he should go to (to get general success?)' don't seem to have much in common.

In the present batch these are the questions

1. If I find the party inquired of at home? (Is X at home?)

2. A thing suddenly happening, whether good or ill? (note: Lilly uses a horary chart for a completely different question - where a woman's sun is - to judge this question!). This would be useful for event charts I imagine.

3. What marks the querent had(I'm not really interested in this . So skimming lightly)

4. Whether someone absent is alive or dead?

All these have distinct techniques.
 

Minderwiz

Lilly gives a new batch of questions and procedures to judge them.
I'm puzzled because these questions don't really have much to do with each other.

In the previous example "whether he shall live long yea or not" and the prediction of immediate happenings in the past and future of the querent, and 'which part of the country he should go to (to get general success?)' don't seem to have much in common.

In the present batch these are the questions

1. If I find the party inquired of at home? (Is X at home?)

2. A thing suddenly happening, whether good or ill? (note: Lilly uses a horary chart for a completely different question - where a woman's sun is - to judge this question!). This would be useful for event charts I imagine.

3. What marks the querent had(I'm not really interested in this . So skimming lightly)

4. Whether someone absent is alive or dead?

All these have distinct techniques.

The only thing they have in common is that they are all first house questions. They relate to the body or where it is physically located.
 

RohanMenon

Excellent Point. Minderwiz, Thank You.

I see Lilly's procedures beginning to converge to a 'generic horary' procedure. The main difference I see from contemporary horary technique is the use of *successive* aspects of the significator and/or Moon, and a greater focus on the nature of the sign, and specific degrees (within a term, decan etc).

I'll see if this pattern holds as I go deeper into his book
 

RohanMenon

Lilly continues with First House Questions

"Of a thing happening whether it be good or evil" - in other words, how to judge an event chart .

Cast a chart at the point where the event happens, or when you hear of it.
Look at the lords of the signs occupied by the Sun, the Moon and the Lord of the Ascendant.

Determine which of these is the most powerful with respect to the Ascendant.

If this planet is in sextile or trine to Jupiter, Venus or Sun, no evil will come from the event.

If this planet is weak, combust, conjunct, square or opposition to Mars, Saturn or Mercury, evil will come in a form/via a person signified by the afflicting planet. By the location and rulerships of the afflicing planet, the nature and/or delivery agent of the evil my be predicted. Rules third house => kinsman . etc.

If the Woman (who was looking for her son)'s chart were to be reflective of an event (here there is no event, Lilly is just saying what he would have done if this chart were cast for an event or news of an event),

The Sun is in Leo
The Moon is in Pisces
and Venus (LoA) is in Gemini

Venus is most powerful wrt the ascendant . (hmm so other things being equal Lord of ascendant is most powerful? makes sense, since this is essentially a first house question)

The Ascendant is Libra
Venus has a term in Libra
She casts a trine into the house
and is trine with Jupiter who is in the 1st

So if this were an event chart, it would have turned out well for the querent
 

RohanMenon

Lilly addresses "whether an absent party be alive or dead"

What mark, mole or scar, the querent had in any part of his body. (uninteresting to me. skipped)

Whether one absent be dead or alive.
If the missing person is not related to the person who asks the question, the *missing person* gets the first house, and the First House, lord of the first and the Moon signify the missing party. The Lord of the Eighth, or planet located in (or within 5 degrees of the cusp) of the eighth show his death and its quality.

If Lord of the Ascendant (or Moon) and Lord of the 8th are conjunct, or in opposition in houses 8,2, 6, 12, these denote that the party is deceased or sick and near death.

If there is any translation of light between the Lord of the Ascendant and Lord of the 8th, or the Lord of the 8th be in the ascendant, or Lord of the Ascendant and (or?) Moon in the 4th, these are all testimonies that the party is dead.

If the Lord of the Ascendant separates from a bad aspect of
a) Lord of the 6th => judge that the party has recently been sick
b) Lord of the 8th => judge that the party has been in danger of death, but is not dead
c) Lord of the 12th => judge that the party has been troubled by thoughts of imprisonment, arrests etc
d) Lord of the 2nd => judge that the party has suffered from lack of money
e) Lord of the 9th/3d => he has been accosted by thieves etc on his journeys
and so on.

Lilly finds that if the Lord of the Ascendant is in the 9th, 10th or 11th, in spite of many reports that the party was dead, he turned up alive. So judge accordingly. To see when this party would return, or if you'll get news of him, look for
(a) Lord of the 11th and ascendant come to a trine or sextile (why only 11th? why not 10th or 9th?)
(b) If the Moon applies to a trine or sextile of the Lord of the Ascendant, count the degrees to perfect the aspect and for every degree (measured *from the Moon* at least that is how I understand it)
in moveable signs, take days,
in common signs, weeks
in fixed signs, months
to get the interval of time from now, to when you'd hear of the party being alive.

Now Lilly judges the chart cast for the woman enquiring if her son was at her home, *as if* it were a chart cast for "whether an absent party be dead or alive"

The First House is Libra (interesting that the son gets the first house in spite of the querent having a relationship with him. This is in keeping with Minderwiz's horary method which I have shamelessly copied and adopted and can be found on the first page of this thread) with Jupiter contained in it (practically conjunct the ascendant).

Thus Venus (Lady of the Ascendant) and Jupiter (planet contained in the 1st) and Moon (always, co significator of the party who gets the first house) are the significators.

None of these are in any malignant aspect (including conjunction) to the Lords of the 8th or 6th (note that Lilly does not check for aspects to the Lord of the 2nd or 12th, though he asks us to do so in the 'general instructions' above.

There is no tarnslation of light between the Lords of 8th/6th and Lords of the ascendant, the Lord of the 8th is not in the ascendant, and neither Moon nor Lord of the ascendant are in the 4th.

(Lilly doesn't mention this, but here Venus, Lady of the Ascendant is in the 9th, which is another indicator that the party is in good health).

So Lilly judges the absent party to be alive and in good health.

and then goes further.

Since the Lady of the Ascendant (Venus) had recently squared Mars, Lord of the 2nd and 6th, Lilly judges that the party had suffered from want of Money (2nd) or inclined to a fever (6th) but by Jupiter being in the Ascendant and trine to Venus (in the 9th) Lilly judges that Medicine (jupiter) was applied, and since Mercury (lord of the 111th) *squares* Jupiter in the ascendant BUT Lilly says these are 'signs of long ascensios' so this is effectively a trine (!!!! mind blown !!! Is this a general principle to learn and apply? By degree, this is very much an applying square!). Mercury is about 10 degrees away from a perfect square from Jupiter, and in Cancer, (so a Movable sign) so Lilly would predict that the querent would get news of the party in about 10 weeks. (Hmm this should be 10 days by the Movable signs being given 'days' in the general schema above, but Lilly seems to be contextualizing as Minderwiz clarified in an earlier post)

The emerging principle I notice is that a chart cast for a question X of the nature of house A, can be used for other questions Y,Z as long as they are also of the nature of house A.
Whoa!
 

Minderwiz

RohanMenon said:
The First House is Libra (interesting that the son gets the first house in spite of the querent having a relationship with him. This is in keeping with Minderwiz's horary method which I have shamelessly copied and adopted and can be found on the first page of this thread) with Jupiter contained in it (practically conjunct the ascendant).

That Lilly's been stealing my methods again, I'll sue!! - Oh wait, he was writing 370 years ago and I copied him. Drat!

There's no need to give her the first. She might be the querent but the question is not about her at all, it's about her son. If she get's the first, then he gets the fifth and the chart needs to be turned to get any relevant information.

I've tried to get Sharla to try this but she doesn't like it and at this stage in her progress it's best that she feels comfortable with what she's doing and why. So don't be afraid to use the fifth for this but make that decision before you cast the chart, not after you've seen it. And keep to that method till you're ready for a permanent change (if you ever decide that you need to change).
 

RohanMenon

That Lilly's been stealing my methods again, I'll sue!! - Oh wait, he was writing 370 years ago and I copied him. Drat!

Lol! Lol!

There's no need to give her the first. She might be the querent but the question is not about her at all, it's about her son. If she get's the first, then he gets the fifth and the chart needs to be turned to get any relevant information.

Yes, I understand this. I prefer your way (copycat Lilly should be sued!).

So don't be afraid to use the fifth for this but make that decision before you cast the chart, not after you've seen it. And keep to that method till you're ready for a permanent change (if you ever decide that you need to change).

I'm perfectly fine with using the first house, unless the querent's relationship with the 'party' (here her son) is somehow pertinent to the question. I'm a pragmatist and have no attachment to any method (or Zodiac or houses system) except to the degree it works and gives me good results.

Avoiding turning the chart where possible seems to work well for me. So your/Lilly's method it is, till something better comes along!
 

RohanMenon

On Ships etc

A Ship at Sea "Whatever in Her, Her Safety or Destruction"

I doubt I'll ever encounter questions about ships at sea, but I'm working through this in the hopes of picking up general techniques that can be applied eleswhere.


Lilly says the ancients (who?) evaluate this from the 9th house (of journeys) and its Lord, but since he thinks the question is fundamentally about it structural integrity (or otherwise) he uses the first house (and its lord).

See if either the sign or the Moon is 'unfortunated'.

Sign:
A malevolent planet by position (so lords of 6,8,12?) be placed in the ascendant.
A planet in the first house has dignity in the 8th (interesting. never saw this before as a technique)
Lord of Ascendant in the 8th, (or in configuration with it?)
LoA in configuration with lords of 12th, 6th, 4th

Moon:
combust (so New Moon)
under the Earth (same as below the Horizon I think)

Then,
consider the ship sunk, and all men drowned, unless there is a reception between themselves (who? I'm assuming between the LoA and 8th etc lords xor the Moon and these lords. But the sentence is ambigous. Could it mean mutual reception between Moon and Loa ? That doesn't make much sense. I'm thinking a situation like "LoA opposes Lord of 8th, but they have mutual reception)

If the Moon and the rising sign (and its Lord?) are free from all misfortune, then the ship is safe, more so if they (again who?) are in mutual reception.

If the ascendant and moon are unfortunate, but Lord of ascendant is fortunate, the ship is sunk, but the men are safe.




For significators of the ship he uses the *sign* ascending [1] and the Moon as significators.

[1] Hmm interesting. The sign is considered to be a 'container of things' just as a ship is, and the contents evaluated by planets in and aspects received into the sign.
Lilly now divides the ship into twelve and assigns each part to a sign. (!) Thus, Pisces, for example, gets the Oars. Cancer gets the floor of the ship and so on.

Signs which are fortunate (have benefics, aspects of benefics and so on) areconsiderd indicative of strong and well made parts. Malefics and other impediments show weak parts.

When a specific ship sets out, if the querent asks of what can be expected of the ship on her voyage, and what condition she will return in, look at the angles of the ship. If fortunate planets are posted there, and malefics remote from the angles, cadent or combust, or under the beams, predict that the ship will go safe to the place intended, with all her cargo.

Else,(If malefics are at the angles etc) there will be trouble. A detail of the various types of trouble follows. The rest of this, and the two examples of 'remote viewing' a ship's condition, I skimmed through.

Lilly recommends, the moment when the astrologer comprehends the client's question as the time to cast the chart, and see no problem in casting charts to answer one's own questions, and reccomends casting the chart when "heavily perplexed"

and that ends the chapter on questions of the first house.
I'll now take a few days (a week?) to review all the first house lessons, and integrate their principles into my horary technique. When that is done, I'll start working on the next chapter "Judgments concerning the Second House"
 

Minderwiz

Lilly says the ancients (who?) evaluate this from the 9th house (of journeys) and its Lord, but since he thinks the question is fundamentally about it structural integrity (or otherwise) he uses the first house (and its lord).

You might think that ancients are Hellenistic Astrololgers, even the semi mythical Nechepso and Petosiris - who Valens refers to as ancients) but Lilly had no access to Valens or Dorotheus or any significant Hellenistic text apart from Ptolemy. So ancients tend to be be medieval Arab/Persian/Jewish writers like Al Kindi or Sahl.

He's a bit ambivalent about them too. Like me, he wanted to get back to the original system, but the only work he has is that of Ptolemy, who he assumes represents the true beginnings. Ptolemy is notoriously terse in the text, so whilst what he says seems to make sense, actually nailing it down to precise techniques that you can apply, is difficult. Much of the proliferation of house systems in the medieval period was due to trying to work out what Ptolemy's quadrant house system actually was (and was unaware that quadrant systems were only used for the Length of Life calculation - see Valens Book III).

So Lilly got his techniques from the Arabs, (and then refined them a bit) but felt that they were not really the genuine article. Actually, much that he dismisses as Arab 'pollution' (my word) has authentic roots in Hellenistic Astrology (such as the uses of Lots).

RohanMenon said:
[1] Hmm interesting. The sign is considered to be a 'container of things' just as a ship is, and the contents evaluated by planets in and aspects received into the sign.
Lilly now divides the ship into twelve and assigns each part to a sign. (!) Thus, Pisces, for example, gets the Oars. Cancer gets the floor of the ship and so on.

Signs which are fortunate (have benefics, aspects of benefics and so on) areconsiderd indicative of strong and well made parts. Malefics and other impediments show weak parts.

When a specific ship sets out, if the querent asks of what can be expected of the ship on her voyage, and what condition she will return in, look at the angles of the ship. If fortunate planets are posted there, and malefics remote from the angles, cadent or combust, or under the beams, predict that the ship will go safe to the place intended, with all her cargo.

Else,(If malefics are at the angles etc) there will be trouble. A detail of the various types of trouble follows. The rest of this, and the two examples of 'remote viewing' a ship's condition, I skimmed through.

Lilly recommends, the moment when the astrologer comprehends the client's question as the time to cast the chart, and see no problem in casting charts to answer one's own questions, and reccomends casting the chart when "heavily perplexed"

and that ends the chapter on questions of the first house.
I'll now take a few days (a week?) to review all the first house lessons, and integrate their principles into my horary technique. When that is done, I'll start working on the next chapter "Judgments concerning the Second House"

Just as the body is a container for the soul, the ship is also a container for her crew and gets the Ascendant (which signifies the body in proper Astrology).

You could apply exactly the same method to an aircraft flight - so the question what happened to flight MH370 could be dealt with in the same general way. You could also apply it to a bus or to a family car.
 

dadsnook2000

Opinion

I hate it when astrology gets this detailed and complex. Dave