Art versus Concept

Thanks all, for the insights - food for thought in each and every one.

Anna - such an uncompromising stand you're taking....

Anna said:

The art is irrelevant.

The concept MUST be based upon a sound knowledge of Tarot backed up by many years of serious study and understanding of what Tarot is. It must be true to Tarot and have something relevant and new to say, or teach, about Tarot.

The only deck that has done this in modern times, to my mind, is the Thoth.

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I'd agree tentatively with your first para. How many years study though, I wonder, is enough? And does that study include actually reading tarot, or is an in-depth study of tarot history, symbolism and traditional systems of reading/interpretation enough?

As for the art being irrelevant - you've rendered me temporarily speechless... except for a single thought: IMHO the Thoth would not have endured or enjoy the status it does today if the art had been uninspired...

Pen

I love art decks - including, and perhaps especially, Pen's. But concept is a tricky one.The Transparent would be a CLASSIC "concept" deck, in that it is so different the art had to be modified to fit the concept.

Theme decks are something else. Where does theme end and concept begin...?

goldenweb said:

How many years study though, I wonder, is enough? And does that study include actually reading tarot, or is an in-depth study of tarot history, symbolism and traditional systems of reading/interpretation enough?

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It should include all of that, and more.

Creating a tarot deck is an attempt to say something worthwhile about Tarot, which other people can learn from and be inspired by. If you don't know very much about Tarot, then at best your deck won't be very good and at worst, you will misinform a whole lot of people who pick up your deck and take it to be an authority on Tarot.

Because that is what most people will do, they will see your deck as being "Tarot" and what you say as being absolute fact about what Tarot is. Most tarot buyers don't use this forum, they just buy the one deck that "speaks" to them and that's it.

You owe it to those buying your deck to get it right. Not just for their sake, but for the sake of Tarot.

(I'm not meaning you, btw! I'm using "you" as in creators in general.)

As for the art being irrelevant - you've rendered me temporarily speechless... except for a single thought: IMHO the Thoth would not have endured or enjoy the status it does today if the art had been uninspired...

Pen

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The art of the Marseilles decks isn't exactly pretty though is it? And they are amoungst the greatest, most iconic decks in existance.

Anna said:

The art of the Marseilles decks isn't exactly pretty though is it? And they are amoungst the greatest, most iconic decks in existance.

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Art doesn't have to be 'pretty' to be meaningful or stimulating. And the art of the TdM decks has so much to offer - after all they were originally cut into wood blocks by hand ( and who knows what those unknown craftsmen and women were thinking as they worked?) - plus history, mystery and the actual game of tarot.

Pen

Anna said:

You owe it to those buying your deck to get it right. Not just for their sake, but for the sake of Tarot.

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To get it right. Hmmm. Surely everything starts out and then evolves - language, everything. If it didn't we'd all be using facimiles of the Visconti Sforza. Nothing remains static. The Thoth itself is a product of evolution, unless it was transmitted directly to AC from the Egyptian ether. But perhaps your point is that AC studied - no one can deny that, although there are those who'd dispute that he 'accessed' the truth.

The meanings of the RWS have evolved also - Waite's Key to the Tarot is certainly not a good fit with the meanings attributed to the deck in numerous books since its publication.

Personally though, my own aim is to create a complete deck that not only works beautifully but is lovely to look at too. But I can only work to the very best of my abilities at any given period. Time will tell, I guess.

Pen

gregory said:

I love art decks - including, and perhaps especially, Pen's.

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Thanks gregory!

Theme decks are something else. Where does theme end and concept begin...?

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I'm really going to have to think about this....

Pen

gregory said:

Theme decks are something else. Where does theme end and concept begin...?

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Theme decks are predominantly decorative (I don't mean that perjoratively; I mean, the beauty of the image is paramount). With concept decks, the meaning of the card goes beyond what you can actually see on the card, beyond the image, if you like.

I know what I mean, anyway...

For myself, the artwork is equally important as the symbolism it should be built on.

I think within nearly any "theme" chosen, with enough research there is symbolism to be built upon, (although I have to admit I can't really see it within the vampire mindset - what is there GOOD about vampires, to show the good side of tarot?? But that's *ME*) and those that are theme decks which miss the mark are a show of lack of knowledge or caring to reach it. Yes, some may be more naive than others, "shallower" as some say, which merely means easier to read. Some require months/years of study to understand fully! I don't believe either sort of deck is 'wrong'. Different purposes perhaps. There's nothing wrong with a deck that's simple and wholesome rather than cryptic and confusing.(at least until you spend the months/years studying it) I feel there's room for both simple comfort and intellectual growth within Tarot.

And, any concept worth expressing is worth expressing well. In the art world, this means good art. There is enough ugliness in the world, I won't invite it to be my personal reading decks! (Although I have and will invite them into my collection, being tarot is the only real requisite there.)

~Yira

goldenweb said:

Art doesn't have to be 'pretty' to be meaningful or stimulating. And the art of the TdM decks has so much to offer ...

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SO true!!! I'm not a Marseilles fan, but I do like the artwork. It's not "pretty" in a traditional sense, but it has a raw power to it that speaks volumes.

Art is in the eye of the beholder.

Do you think the "concept" can be a visual one, rather than, say, a theme or a set of values that are portrayed through the art?

For example, I'd say the World Spirit has a set of values (cultural inclusiveness, empowerment, etc) portrayed within the images; they are present in individual cards and emerge most clearly when you look at the whole deck.

In contrast, I think that goldenweb's tarot, the Pen, has a foundation of visual concepts including the portraits, hands, and use of color against the b&w drawings. (I love your deck, Pen.)

Anna said:

Creating a tarot deck is an attempt to say something worthwhile about Tarot, which other people can learn from and be inspired by. If you don't know very much about Tarot, then at best your deck won't be very good and at worst, you will misinform a whole lot of people who pick up your deck and take it to be an authority on Tarot.

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I see it differently. I'd say that creating a tarot deck is an attempt to say something worthwhile through tarot and within the boundaries of tarot structure and tradition. Too far afield and it becomes an oracle (or maybe just a not-good-for-me tarot deck).