Who's for giving "the Gypsies" their due?

Maybe there was a Bawdy Jongleurs Who Dress As Nuns deck for all we know.

d'or bohemian

northsea said:

Maybe there was a Bawdy Jongleurs Who
Dress As Nuns deck for all we know.

Click to expand...

Most people find this approach easier than actually looking
at their own cards...it saves so much time just being right.

Who knows where the tarot originated? But the gypsies certainly used cards - I think they mainly used playing cards, with tarot-ish interpretations.

One of my guides is a gypsy (it's one of my dad's relatives who were Irish gypsies) and she helps me with the cards, so she must have read them at one time or another!

Sue x

To continue this discussion, I'll ask the question of why would it be necessary for the Gypsies to set foot on European soil before the 15th c. to have influenced the early Italian tarot decks. Wouldn't it be possible for a "Marco Polo", a mercenary, or a trader to have had contact with the Gypsies, wherever they were at the time, and then packed a deck or two for their return trip to Italy?

Nevertheless, if there's no record of any pictorial trump cards from the East (I haven't researched this myself so forgive my ignorance if the definitive answer is no), then the question looks moot, except to identify a possibility of outside influence on the Italian tarot's creation from Desavatara cards or such. After reading Robert Place's book on tarot history which suggests a mainly Neopolitan (no, not ice cream), Neoplatonic inspiration for the Italian trionfi with three cardinal virtues, the influence from Gypsies on the tarot looks minimal at best as the Gypsies weren't known for their Neoplatonism, as far as I know. They could have helped spread their usage for divination throughout Europe though.

Dear Aeclectians,

In beginning this thread I was following an inspiration,
but not something "provable" by academic standards.

I had an honest feeling, and so didn't worry to state it
here aloud just as it came to me. The Rom are worthy.
Worthy to be recognised for their contributions to the
history of Tarot~I felt it as clear as could be. My fault.

And so I wish to apologise to all the people who posted
their sincere thoughts, and feelings, here in this thread.
I should not have brought you so into range of derision.

And I wish to apologise also to all the people who didn't
post though they may have wished to, because my ideas
brought forward such a strong wave of hostile negativity.

I may never get used to being made fun of on the forums,
but it was never my intention to bring others to that risk.
But maybe someone else can quietly bring up this subject,
and it will be able to be openly discussed in an adult way.

Sincerely,
Fulgour

Well, I'd like to think that the Italian Renaissance artists were so broad-minded in their interest of history, philosophy and spirituality that they perhaps were inspired by pictorial cards from the East, maybe brought to their attention in some way via the Gypsies. After all, wasn't the Renaissance a rediscovery of lost knowledge after the Dark Ages? Worth looking into at least.

Anyway, here's a look at the Ganjifa cards:

http://a_pollett.tripod.com/cards25.htm


...reading here that the Ganjifa were created in the 16th c. which would preclude any influence on the original tarot cards.

Fulgour said:

In beginning this thread I was following an inspiration,
but not something "provable" by academic standards.

Click to expand...

I think it does everyone good to realize that most of what people speculate about here in relation to the tarot is NOT 100% provable , even the most allegedly well researched , well presented , and sometimes foreign language formatted .

Fulgour said:

I had an honest feeling, and so didn't worry to state it
here aloud just as it came to me. The Rom are worthy.

Click to expand...

Quite so, Mr. Fulgour. Wouldn't we both give some gold to be able to talk to the gypsies of old about their experience of the tarot ?

Fulgour said:

I may never get used to being made fun of on the forums,

Click to expand...

Oftentimes , the most revolutionary new ideas are initially the ones most ridiculed. Forward thinkers and people who are not afraid to question are often ahead of their time in their views and as time goes by , their views gradually come to mainstream acceptance. It's not an easy job, but somebody's got to do it.

If we quit thinking outside the conventional box about tarot , there won't be any new avenues of inquiry . Deeper revelations may never be discovered or explored . We will become stunted , complacent , narrow minded. Content to accept the thoughts of others as our own . We just might miss the point, and goddess knows what else.

Books that I can recommend...

The World of the Tarot: The Gypsy Method of Reading the Tarot
by Golowin, S.

Gypsies Their Life Lore & Legend
by Bercovici, Konrad

Gypsy Folktales
by Tong, Diane

The Gypsies
by Clebert, Jean-Paul

Bury Me Standing : The Gypsies and Their Journey
by Fonseca, Isabel

The Gypsy Dreambook
by Golowin, Sergius

*

Tshatshimo Romano!

Thanks for the list of books, Fulgoar. I have a couple of them, and the rest will be a good hunt to find. Where did you learn the Romany you're using?

hi magpie9

magpie9 said:

Where did you learn the Romany you're using?

Click to expand...

Romany Dictionary
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/3698/rom.htm

Finding lists of gypsy (zigeuner, tsigane, gitano) words
is an unorganised adventure, like trading for a copy of
and Eden Gray book when you actually have it already.
It's supposed to be fun~all about learning and sharing!