Elemental Dignities Study Group Discussion & Index Thread

Ziev

rwcarter said:
IIRC, by traditional Golden Dawn rules, AC is only looked at when they are opposites, and then they knock each other out, leaving just B. I never pay attention to AC and by looking at BA and BC, I think I cover ABC pretty well..

Excellent. That makes sense to me thanks. Also, what does IIRC mean?

I also read through the first exercise and loved everyone's responses. They made complete sense. I think what I am going to do is before I read the next EDSG thread I am going to take the cards used in the exercise and try it then read and post. I am very excited to figure this out. :) See ya soon!
 

rwcarter

Sorry. IIRC = If I remember correctly. I should know better than to use abbreviations....
 

Ziev

Rodney,

I am wondering about the court cards. I know they have their own element which they represent but I also learned that each Page, Knight, Queen and King have elements too. For example: PoW is earth of fire, PoC earth of water, PoS earth of air & PoP earth of earth, etc. Here are the elements per pip that I have learned: Pages being earth, Knights being air, Queen being water and King being fire. How would that incorporate into the reading (in your opinion)?

Thanks ~Ziev
 

rwcarter

Exercises 2, 3, and 7 show how I handle Courts. I don't pay attention to the elemental association of the rank (and yes, you have those right, although some see the Knights as Fire and the Kings as Air). I believe the Golden Dawn also didn't take the rank associations into account, but I'm not 100% certain of that. It can be done, but I think that's an advanced topic and this EDSG is more for those beginning with EDs.

Here's an example why I don't use them at this point. Say you have an Earth card in the center flanked by the PS on one side or the other. Since Swords are Air, the PS should weaken the central Earth card. But since the Page is an Earth card, does its earthiness overtake its airiness making the card friendly to the central Earth card? Or since the PS is Earth of Air, is he so conflicted within himself that he's unable to have any effect on the central Earth card? It's also possible the earthiness of the Page weakens the airy aspect of the Sword which in turn weakens the earthiness of the central Earth card. Using the example above, you could also say that if the PS is to the left of the central Earth card then the airiness of the Sword is weakened (EAE - Air is surrounded by cards that weaken it) leaving the earthiness of the Page to strengthen the central Earth card. But if the PS is to the right of the central Earth card, you'd have EEA where the earthiness of the Page is weakened by the airiness of the Sword leaving the airiness of the Sword to also weaken the central Earth card.

If you're not going :bugeyed: by now, you should be! :laugh:

Rodney
 

Ziev

:eek: WOW! LOL. Ok, I had to read that a few times but I think I understand what you are saying.
 

csdude

Hi, all! I'm very new to ED's (I just heard about the concept a week ago), but since I don't use reversals in my readings, I thought it worthwhile to learn. Especially when a traditional reading doesn't make sense.

I did a spread for today, asking for the romantic outcome for the day (referring to romantic gestures, etc, not necessarily sex). This was the result:

* Jumpers
5 of Hearts (disappointment, lost love)
- backed by 8 of Hearts (sacrifice)

* Spread
9 of Hearts (fulfillment)
9 of Swords (nightmare)
Sun (love, happiness)

* Shadow
2 of Hearts (romance, maybe some sort of a choice to be made)

The way I would traditionally read this doesn't make a lot of sense; there's going to be disappointment and a sacrifice of some sort, but the day will be overall romantic. By the end of the day, I'll feel fulfilled, sad and depressed, but filled with love and happiness. What?? LOL

So I'm trying to get more insight using ED's. But I'm more than a little confused:

1. How do the jumpers and shadow card come in to play, if at all? The spread itself is W / A / F, but the jumpers and shadow are all Water. Does this give strength to the Water card in the spread?

2. Am I correct that the Water on the left is neutral to the Air card, but that it's strengthened by the Fire card? If so, what does that mean?

Or does the Water and Fire card neutralize one another, meaning that the only relevant card is the center card?

3. I have 3 positive and 3 negative cards, so that's already confusing. But using ED's, it seems like the flank cards are neutralized so that the center card is the only relevant card... which is backed by the jumpers, but then the shadow card is the exact opposite.

To me, it's counter-intuitive to ignore the Major Arcana card in the spread. Especially when 2 of the cards in the spread are positive, but reading it this way makes it seem all negative.

FWIW, it's 10:30pm here, and I haven't heard from my love interest at all today. She actually disabled her FB page early today, which usually means that she's sad or depressed and wants to be left alone for awhile. We had a rather negative week last week, anyway (not arguing, but I let her know that she hurt my feelings; read my thread linked below for details), so I'm not shocked by her being sad or overwhelmed today. But I am trying to determine whether I should hang on for it to get better, or just move on.


* Details on the negative week last week:
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=237008
 

rwcarter

1. How do the jumpers and shadow card come in to play, if at all? The spread itself is W / A / F, but the jumpers and shadow are all Water. Does this give strength to the Water card in the spread?
Glad you stopped by csdude! I've never heard mention of using jumpers or shadow/base cards with EDs. If you use them, I would use them the same way you normally do without considering their elemental interaction with the rest of the spread. (An advanced use of EDs is to look at the triad in relation to an elemental base, which can completely change how the triad is read. But that would be for an advanced EDSG.)

2. Am I correct that the Water on the left is neutral to the Air card, but that it's strengthened by the Fire card? If so, what does that mean?
Water and Air are neutral. Water and Fire are enemies. Air and Fire are friendly. In WAF, A is the primary card. So A is neutral to W and friendly to F. What that means is that the interpretation of the F card should strengthen the interpretation of the A card. The way I deal with neutral cards, they stay neutral (so the interpretation of the W card could be indifferent to the interpretation of the A card) and the individual cards tell me whether they're friendly, neutral or unfriendly.

If the triad were AWF, W and F are unfriendly, so the W interpretation would be weakened by the F interpretation.

Or does the Water and Fire card neutralize one another, meaning that the only relevant card is the center card?
By Golden Dawn use of EDs that is correct. But I don't like wasting cards, so I don't use that rule when reading EDs.

3. I have 3 positive and 3 negative cards, so that's already confusing. But using ED's, it seems like the flank cards are neutralized so that the center card is the only relevant card... which is backed by the jumpers, but then the shadow card is the exact opposite.
EVERY card has positive and negative aspects to it. Again, I would NOT look at the elemental interactions of jumpers or shadow cards. Read them as you would with any non ED spread.

To me, it's counter-intuitive to ignore the Major Arcana card in the spread. Especially when 2 of the cards in the spread are positive, but reading it this way makes it seem all negative.
EDs don't care about card ranks. So Majors are not greater or more important than Minors. And if you had (any card) 7W 8C, The 8C interpretation weakens the 7W interpretation. It's not that since there are 8 Water and 7 Fire, that the Water completely puts out the Fire.

You should really look at the exercises linked in the first post to see EDs in action.

Rodney
 

csdude

Glad you stopped by csdude!

You say that NOW, but just wait until I overwhelm you with stupid newbie questions! LOL


I've never heard mention of using jumpers or shadow/base cards with EDs. If you use them, I would use them the same way you normally do without considering their elemental interaction with the rest of the spread. (An advanced use of EDs is to look at the triad in relation to an elemental base, which can completely change how the triad is read. But that would be for an advanced EDSG.)

Makes sense. I've been doing regular 3-card spreads for awhile, using jumpers and shadow card (a new addition for me), and I've only been turning to ED's recently when the spread doesn't make sense in a traditional reading. So for those, I don't know that I'm using ED's until I've already looked at the spread.

That could be wrong, though, from a spiritual point of view. Should I "announce" that I'll be using ED's before shuffling? Or is it OK to optionally use it on any reading (including past readings) for further insights?


Water and Air are neutral. Water and Fire are enemies. Air and Fire are friendly. In WAF, A is the primary card. So A is neutral to W and friendly to F. What that means is that the interpretation of the F card should strengthen the interpretation of the A card. The way I deal with neutral cards, they stay neutral (so the interpretation of the W card could be indifferent to the interpretation of the A card) and the individual cards tell me whether they're friendly, neutral or unfriendly.

This makes sense to me. Am I correct that since the Sun card strengthened the 9 of Swords, the Sun and 9 should be read together? Or is it that any Fire card on the right would have made the 9 of Swords stronger, and it doesn't matter whether the card was the Sun or, for example, the 8 of Wands?

Assuming that I'm right, how would one read the 9 of Swords with the Sun card together, when they seem to be opposites? Is it just that the Sun amplifies the 9 of Swords emotions, and the 9 of Hearts is not relevant to the reading?

What would your final interpretation of this triad have been?


*** Update ***
Case in point, a spread for today gave:

9 of Wands (discipline, bide your time)
9 of Swords (nightmares)
High Priestess

This is Fire / Air / Water, just like before, but now the Fire is on the left instead of the right. Does this mean that the HP would be more or less ignored, and the reading should focus on the 9 of Swords, backed by the 9 of Wands? Which I would take to mean that today will be like yesterday (lonely and generally bad), but I need to express discipline and bide my time.

(The Shadow for today was Ace of Hearts, where yesterday it was the 2 of Hearts; I take this to mean that there is still love here, but she's going through a rough time and doesn't want me bothering her.)

****


By Golden Dawn use of EDs that is correct. But I don't like wasting cards, so I don't use that rule when reading EDs.

I agree, I've been struggling with the idea of just ignoring cards altogether like that.


You should really look at the exercises linked in the first post to see EDs in action.

I did review the first two earlier, but between that and the info on tarotelements.com that I mentioned before, I'm getting overwhelmed with info. I was hoping that a more hands-on approach would help it to stick :D
 

rwcarter

Sorry, but my focus has been elsewhere the last two days.

Makes sense. I've been doing regular 3-card spreads for awhile, using jumpers and shadow card (a new addition for me), and I've only been turning to ED's recently when the spread doesn't make sense in a traditional reading. So for those, I don't know that I'm using ED's until I've already looked at the spread.

That could be wrong, though, from a spiritual point of view. Should I "announce" that I'll be using ED's before shuffling? Or is it OK to optionally use it on any reading (including past readings) for further insights?
I have a very specific shuffling method that I use when I'm doing readings from the comfort of my study. If I happen to use a different shuffling method, I don't think that tarot is going to give me wrong cards cause I used a different method. Similarly, if you only use EDs when the reading doesn't make sense to you in the way you normally interpret the cards, then tarot (which is a euphemism for what the source of your interpretations is) will know to give you difficult cards when it wants you to interpret them through EDs.

This makes sense to me. Am I correct that since the Sun card strengthened the 9 of Swords, the Sun and 9 should be read together? Or is it that any Fire card on the right would have made the 9 of Swords stronger, and it doesn't matter whether the card was the Sun or, for example, the 8 of Wands?
Almost. ANY Fire card will strengthen any other Fire card or any Air card. It doesn't matter what the specific cards are. I wouldn't say that pairs of cards that strengthen each other are read together, because the opposite of that is that cards that weaken each other aren't read at all. If you look back at my interpretations in the Your Readings thread you started, you'll see that I included all three cards separately in my interpretation.

For the 9S | 8W, I could see worries (9S) that come on quickly or unexpectedly (8W).

For me, it really is the exception to the rule when I don't start my interpretation with the central card. I usually then go to the card on the left, but sometimes I have to go to the card on the right in order for the interpretation to make sense.

Assuming that I'm right, how would one read the 9 of Swords with the Sun card together, when they seem to be opposites? Is it just that the Sun amplifies the 9 of Swords emotions, and the 9 of Hearts is not relevant to the reading?
I usually only read EDs in odd numbers of cards using triads starting from the center out. So the reading for ABCDEFGHI would be DEF, CEG, BEH and AEI. As the interpretation of triads is based on the interactions of pairs of cards, those can also be read.

For consistency when using EDs with pairs, you have to decide which card is the primary and which is the qualifier. For me, with the pair AB, I see A as the primary card and B as the qualifier. So with 9S | Sun, the 9S would be the primary card. So I'd see worries (9S) that a truth will be revealed (Sun). With Sun | 9S, I'd see happiness (Sun) now that worries are over (9S).

What would your final interpretation of this triad have been?
I'm assuming you meant the reading that contained the 9 Hearts and not the reading from your update. Normally UTC is not the place to discuss complete readings, but as you had 2 jumpers and a shadow card in the 9 Hearts reading, the main reading is less than half of the cards from the reading so can be discussed here. The reading from your Update can't be discussed here in UTC because it's more than half of the reading.

So looking at 9H 9S Sun, we have WAF, and we've already gone over the interactions. And I've already said that I leave neutral interactions neutral and let the specific cards tell me how they want to interact. In terms of romantic outcome for the day, my interpretation would've been that you would be worried (9S) that you were going to find out something you didn't want to know (Sun) leaving you wishing that you hadn't found it out (9H). In and of itself, I don't think the cards directly answer the question of romantic outcome, but it's easy enough to extrapolate from the interpretation that your romantic outcome is that you'll be unhappy.

The Sun strengthens the interpretation of the 9S and in this case, I think the 9H is neutral to the 9S (although it strengthens the Sun, but that's not the central card, so that doesn't count).

I did review the first two earlier, but between that and the info on tarotelements.com that I mentioned before, I'm getting overwhelmed with info. I was hoping that a more hands-on approach would help it to stick :D
We can't discuss almost complete readings here in UTC (3 cards out of 4) - they have to be no more than half of the cards. So it would be better to lay down the cards from one of the exercises and ask your questions based on that.

Rodney
 

csdude

Thanks for teaching the class :) I think I'm starting to grasp a remedial understanding.

I came across one today that I want to make sure that I understand correctly. The spread was:

6 of Hearts (water)
9 of Swords (Air)
9 of Wands (Fire)

This was a romantic spread, so the 6 of Hearts and 9 of Swords together seem to imply worrying about love; literally, staying awake all night worrying about it. But the 9 of Wands was confusing, so I turned to ED's.

With this, the 9 of Swords is strengthened by the 9 of Wands, but I'm still not sure what that would mean.

I did a search online, and found this statement:

To the relationship, the 9 of Wands can be a card of great passion if well-dignified. It can mean that you have learned to respect each other’s differences and that you have reached a level of immunity against petty arguments. You are able to see the other person’s true nature and intentions and simply have no need to sweat the small stuff any more.

On the other hand, if ill-dignified, the 9 of Wands could mean that one or both of you are constantly walking on eggshells around the other. There could be a tendency to take everything personally and lash out.

http://lovedovetarot.com/2012/04/19/the-tarot-9s-in-love/

Am I correct that the 9 of Wands is well dignified by the 9 of Swords, even though the 9 of Swords is the focus card? Which would seem to imply that there will be a lot of worry, but that by the end of the day the worries will be resolved positively.

Note that I'm not asking for an interpretation here, per se, just trying to clarify the relationship between the 9 of Swords and 9 of Wands :)