The Etteillas

Le Fanu

Huson, in his book Mystical Origins of the Tarot refers to 4 Etteilla editions (page 55) and I'm curious to know which present day reproductions they might refer to.

He refers to the first edition (1789), probably a reproduction of Etteillas own deck, which I don't think I have ever seen illustrations for and I don't know if this was ever issued.

The 2nd edition (1826) seems to be this one published by Grimaud.

A third appeared in 1838, The Grand Livre de Thot with a book by Julia Orsini, the "Sibyl of the Fauburg Saint-Germain."

Finally, between 1865-1870, the Grand Jeu de L'Oracle des Dames, which has been published by Dusserre and also Lo Scarabeo. A bit gothicky and really rather lovely. This is the one I'd really love to work with.

I'm curious to know whether the first and the third ones were ever published in commercial form/ reissued, and which editions they in fact are. And if there are any other Etteilla editions I should know about.

I have an ongoing thing with the Etteillas; it is the only system which defeats me. I remember this time last year, making it my new year's resolution and of course it didn't last long. I have never found a satisfactory way of working with the Etteilla decks (Dame Fortune's Wheel apart) which didn't involve lots of very arduous memorising...

And while we're on the subject, hands up; has anyone seriously mastered the Etteilla decks?
 

Cerulean

Sorry Lafanu I think there's a mix up on the Grimaud

I do not know if someone or if I might have misprinted a date at some point, but the reproductions, decks and other checks into authenticating the versions that looks like the reproduction House of Grimaud/France Cartes Grand Ettilla --189O to 1900 is what I find seems to be accurate.

There is a Lismon Etteilla with the Julia Orsini book has not been reproduced in the twentieth century has the 1890 date stamp. The keyword search is Lismon Etteilla for sample scans.

The design that we identify as the Grimaud Grand Etteilla has been reproduced seperately by Dussere. The deck sometimes also appears in its original form for sale on ebay and the date stamped is 1890.

There is a Jeu des Princesse Etteilla pattern but I don't know much about all its versions that could be French, Italian or otherwise. I have only vaguely seen one of my reproductions been attributed to perhaps 19th century in a reproduction.

I have not been able to untangle all the variations even after looking thru various timelines, books and websites and rereading the various bits.
 

The crowned one

"The Grimaud Grand Ettilla 2nd edition" was also published about 1890-1900 as Cerulean points out and one from 1937. Both with the same back but one has square corners the other round. A slight difference in the book too. ( a printing number.)
 

Greg Stanton

I've never encountered anyone who actually reads with them -- on Aeclectic or anywhere else. I'm always interested in hearing from people who do read from these unique decks (Leormand, Minchiate, Etteilla) -- Reece/James Ingold only reads with Minchiate tarots, and this fascinates me.

I don't think Dame Fortune's Wheel is technically an Etteilla. The trumps are standard (Etteilla's trumps are complete phoney-baloney hermetic claptrap). Huson took Etteilla's interpretations for the pips (and only the pips) and illustrated them. However, I think he is correct in reasoning that Etteilla's meanings have a traditional basis -- Etteilla was using playing cards for divination before he encountered tarot.

Huson says of Etteilla's pip interpretatons:

"Regarding their authenticity as a traditional system, generally speaking, Etteilla's interpretations seem too quirky and heterogeneous for him to have just made them up. When cartomancers invent an interpretive system, as in the instance of the one invented by the nineteenth-century occultist Papus (Gérard Encausse), it usually displays some kind of internal logic, guiding principle, or inner consistency -- philosophical, numerological, or astrological, perhaps -- which certainly cannot be said of Etteilla's interpretations."

Huson turned to Etteilla's pip interpretations because they are the earliest documented meanings of the cards, not because he wanted to create an Etteilla-patterned deck. Interestingly, Waite included Etteilla's meanings of these cards along with the GD interpretations in the Pictorial Key. He was, more often than not, unsuccessful in reconciling the two sources. Cutting the GD out of the picture makes matters much, much clearer.
 

Golden Moon

Le Fanu said:
Huson, in his book Mystical Origins of the Tarot refers to 4 Etteilla editions (page 55) and I'm curious to know which present day reproductions they might refer to.

He refers to the first edition (1789), probably a reproduction of Etteillas own deck, which I don't think I have ever seen illustrations for and I don't know if this was ever issued.

The 2nd edition (1826) seems to be this one published by Grimaud.

A third appeared in 1838, The Grand Livre de Thot with a book by Julia Orsini, the "Sibyl of the Fauburg Saint-Germain."

Finally, between 1865-1870, the Grand Jeu de L'Oracle des Dames, which has been published by Dusserre and also Lo Scarabeo. A bit gothicky and really rather lovely. This is the one I'd really love to work with.

I'm curious to know whether the first and the third ones were ever published in commercial form/ reissued, and which editions they in fact are. And if there are any other Etteilla editions I should know about.

I have an ongoing thing with the Etteillas; it is the only system which defeats me. I remember this time last year, making it my new year's resolution and of course it didn't last long. I have never found a satisfactory way of working with the Etteilla decks (Dame Fortune's Wheel apart) which didn't involve lots of very arduous memorising...

And while we're on the subject, hands up; has anyone seriously mastered the Etteilla decks?

You might find this useful Le Fanu

http://www.tarotpedia.com/wiki/Tarot_Decks:_Egyptian

http://www.tarotpedia.com/wiki/Etteilla_Pattern
 

The crowned one

Greg Stanton said:
I've never encountered anyone who actually reads with them -- on Aeclectic or anywhere else. I'm always interested in hearing from people who do read from these unique decks (Leormand, Minchiate, Etteilla) -- Reece/James Ingold only reads with Minchiate tarots, and this fascinates me.

I have. I have a antique deck with "crib notes" in french on them. They are a deck of fairly set meanings, so interpretation for me was pretty straight forward. This is a case of where the cards set the mood rather then the reader.
 

Le Fanu

Wow! I went off to bed and there are replies! I thought a thread about Etteilla decks might languish unanswered :D
Cerulean said:
I do not know if someone or if I might have misprinted a date at some point, but the reproductions, decks and other checks into authenticating the versions that looks like the reproduction House of Grimaud/France Cartes Grand Ettilla --189O to 1900 is what I find seems to be accurate.
..............................
actually, I took this info from Huson's book. he says (on the page I cited) that this would be the 2nd edition, published 1826. I think it is also illustrated in Decker, Drummond &c/ Wicked Pack of Cards, and cited as an earlier edition.
Cerulean said:
The design that we identify as the Grimaud Grand Etteilla has been reproduced seperately by Dussere. The deck sometimes also appears in its original form for sale on ebay and the date stamped is 1890.
Is this the Tarot Egyptien? I have this deck, published by Dusserre, but it is the same as LoS Scarabeo's Book of Thoth deck.
Cerulean said:
There is a Jeu des Princesse Etteilla pattern but I don't know much about all its versions that could be French, Italian or otherwise. I have only vaguely seen one of my reproductions been attributed to perhaps 19th century in a reproduction
This is published as Lo Scarabeo's Ancient Esoteric Tarot (and can be seen here). There is also a very curious deck which is illustrated in the Dover Pictorial History of Playing Cards, which had always fascinated me, and which I could never identify. Then last week my partner brought me a deck back from a business trip in Barcelona, the Grimaud Petit Oracle des Dames (I started a thread on Oracles but no replies :() which is essentially a 19th Century Etteilla; 42 cards, some double-ended, which together make up an Etteilla deck, i.e the Consultant card is the same card, it is just double-ended. It really is a beautiful deck, and is the one from my book, but I don't know anyone else who has it!
Greg Stanton said:
I've never encountered anyone who actually reads with them -- on Aeclectic or anywhere else. I'm always interested in hearing from people who do read from these unique decks (Leormand, Minchiate, Etteilla) -- Reece/James Ingold only reads with Minchiate tarots, and this fascinates me
Now that the Marseilles is becoming trendy :D I think it's time for the Etteillas to lose their taboo. I read with the Minchiate by the way, Greg. It isn't too difficult. And I have never used Brian William's book. You basically just need some astrological pointers and have to decide on how you're going to "do" the Grand Dukes. Oh and the elements, but it isn't so difficult as it seems at first...

The Etteillas are beautiful decks; mysterious and seductive (well I think so). they are genuinely esoteric but (to use/ reappropriate Greg's lovely phrase :)) pre-GD claptrap! :)
 

Greg Stanton

Le Fanu said:
The Etteillas are beautiful decks; mysterious and seductive (well I think so). they are genuinely esoteric but (to use/ reappropriate Greg's lovely phrase :)) pre-GD claptrap! :)
As long as it's clear that I that I consider the Golden Dawn and most of the crap that came after it to be claptrap as well!
 

Cerulean

I only know from those that I own

One of my date stamped 1890 is on one Etteilla style with blue swirling sun back -- that is very similar

-to the Grand Etteilla reproduction sold by the House of Grimaud/Frances Carte

-to one of the Editions Dusserre Grand Etteilla reproductions with French booklet. (edited to add, some cards look exactly the same on the fronts; the Editions Dusserre reproduction as a different back and curved corners.)

The difference to my 1890 includes the squared corners and the swirling sun blue and white backs.

According to the link posted earlier, this is said to be an Etteilla I pattern, even if my copy is date-stamped 1890.

http://www.tarotpedia.com/wiki/Etteilla_Pattern

-----------------------------
There is my 1890 stamp on two Lismon Etteillas with subtle variations, one with Julia Orsini book.

But please skip my notes or highlights below if you just want to know if your LS/Grimaud/Dussere reproductions show enough of the available French "Etteilla II "patterns.

What you have discussed above in your reproductions-- to me, it does show a snapshot of some Etteilla variations. In terms of reading the decks, as others have said, reading the keywords on the cards works for your readings.

For examples of period reading or layouts please check out AE Waite's Key to the Tarot translations referencing Julia Orsini..

Again, please know I feel I have only lightly touched on this "Etteilla II" variation.

I find it impossible to ask or answer correctly all the information on different Etteillas as I am still uncertain of many bits and pieces. I prefer to address one aspect at a time--it is a learning curve that works with historical bents. But I am afraid sometimes my answers will lead to other many questions I cannot answer.

As of now (Nov 2009) for the actual deck dating of Etteillas, I try to find visual samples in color and more recent auction info. I also check Kaplan's Encyclopedia, as he has many variations listed.

I do hope Coredils photos and decriptions will help you to see while the old decks some of us has seems confusingly different.. The old cards we have sometimess seem unlike what we all thought were nicely identified by others--well, what a curiousity and wonder!

I do understand that you checked A Wicked Pack of Cards from Dummett and Decker and saw the cards that the veritable Thierry Depaulis attributed his samples to 1789. My Lismon Etteillas likely were printed under the Lismon pseudenym of Simon Blouquel circa 1780 to 1863. I have said before Grimaud acquired the Lismon stock according to seller Wolfgang Kunze. He believed that the date stamp of 1890 may be possibly on designs somehat older. But if I were buying or selling or identifying the deck, I think it is safest as far as I know to follow how the auction catalogs for Stuart Kaplans collection list the decks... or listings you see from Intercol London or Wolfgang Kunze

Please search and check out threads on Lismon for details--hopefully my repeating of highlights below may help a bit:

I found my 1890 Lismon variations might be lumped under Etteilla II pattern might be briefly referred to by authors who do not have all the space to discuss the variations or do not have all the variations of the decks themselves. I find the Etteilla II patterns can:
- differ from the Grimaud reproductions we know today,
- have originals not reprinted in the 20th century as far as I can tell and
- have a different author of instructions. The Julia Orsini documentation that Waite wrote about in his Pictorial Key to the Tarot shows a translation of her her traditional cartomancy.

Julia Orsini's descriptions or brief keywords seem to be a basis of Grimauds booklet, as well information we find in undated Dusserre reproductions and their booklets. I have different Dussere reproductions for very differing patterns. One of my Dussere reproductions looks very similar to Grimaud's/Frances Cartes Grand Etteilla and has a French booklet. It is very similar to the Julia Orsini instructions but not the same.

Sorry, way too many thoughts, may have to edit later.