Intensive Deck Study (IDS) Support Thread ~ Part 3

zan_chan said:

What do we think? Clone or not?

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Haindl as a Thoth clone, tough one. I guess like Promise I would say loosely based on the the Thoth system is a better description.

In that respect it reminds me of my very first deck, the Cosmic. Apparently the Cosmic is also Thoth-based, yet when I first read that I was EXTREMELY puzzled by it. I mean I just didn't see the Thoth connection. I suppose if I studied the Thoth more closely I might see the connection, but I've always seen more of a RWS connection. Then again, as both the Thoth and RWS are based on the same system, its perhaps not surprising that there are similarities to both decks.

I think, if memory serves, that in the past the Thoth deck was far more available on the Continent than the RWS. Therefore most European people who worked with the Tarot used the Thoth (or TdMs). And as both the Haindl and the Comic's artists were German, the deck that they would have most access to, and therefore turn to first for inspiration/form/etc, would be the Thoth. Which technically makes them Thoth-clones. Though as I said, I would personally lean towards "loosely based on the Thoth system" rather than "clone". (Though, of course, the term clone is kinda loosely used, to some it means closely based, while to others any resemblance makes a deck a clone.)

I guess it all boils down to "IDK, its kinda up to you".

FS

I think that the reason Hermann is touted as of the Thoth clan is mostly down to the overarching principles. I didn't spend much time with the deck when I had it - the things to look for are the numbering of Strength and Justice (and their names), the meaning of the Aeon (Judgement) card and its imagery, and the Courts.

I'd agree that the placement of the pips does knock it out of being a "clone", no argument. But if Atu XX is portraying in some way a paradigm shift of human consciousness that is largely devoid of Christian symbolism, that's a big argument. Crowley's "Art" originally meant "Alchemy", but not in the debased, popularised "turning lead into gold" sense, which I personally think is why he avoided entitling it "Alchemy". His "Magus", IMO, is nothing more than an Egyptian-esque conceit and is not to be taken as weighty evidence of Thothiness.

\m/ Kat

Thanks for the responses gang. I've spent all day pondering them and the conclusion I've come to is in the form of another question. Do I care if my Haindl is a Thoth clone or not? Would the fact that it is or isn't related to Thoth change how I go about studying it?

My plan was/is to study with Hermann in and of himself. It seems that opening the door to Thoth in the middle of this thing does nothing but open the Crowley floodgates. If I say yes, I care that Haindl is inspired by Thoth, does that require me to start studying Crowley's writing?

Rachel Pollack seems to think that Thoth isn't require reading. She writes, "...we should not think of it [Haindl] as an occult deck, not in the sense of Crowley. We do not find here the precise details of Hermetic symbolism, the references to doctrines and rituals, the complex use of magical signs and formulas coded into the pictures. Rather than an occult work, Hermann Haindl has created a sacred Tarot..."

Perhaps that quote answers my own questions, but I respect all of your opinions so much that I'm curious if you agree with Pollack.

If it means anything at all, I was just noticing that Aeclectic actually lists the Haindl on its list of "Thoth-inspired" decks rather than "Thoth clones"...

zan, I used my first IDS deck (Ancient Egyptian Tarot) for a good 3-4 months before I realized that it's Thoth-based/related/affiliated/etc and not RWS! That explained the different take on some of the cards, but it didn't really affect how I studied/worked with that deck.

Rodney

First of all, I sit here corrected!
I think that FS hit it on the head, discussing how the Thoth is much more available, etc than the RWS in Europe.

I also seem to use the term "Thoth clone" much more loosely than do others on this board... using it rather interchangeably with "inspired".

zan_chan said:

My plan was/is to study with Hermann in and of himself. It seems that opening the door to Thoth in the middle of this thing does nothing but open the Crowley floodgates. If I say yes, I care that Haindl is inspired by Thoth, does that require me to start studying Crowley's writing?

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NO. Whether clone or inspired by Thoth, I feel that you don't need to go any farther than Rachel's books.

Doesn't Haindl use QBLH? You might do well to pick up Rachel's book on that (or Duquette's? I forget who wrote it).

Chicken Qabala by Lon Milo Duquette - a great first qabalah book. It leads you in so softly and gently that before you know it you're buying the heavyweights and enjoying them I never thought I'd ever enjoy gematria .....

Thanks again for the help and recommendations everyone. I've actually got a copy of Chicken Qabalah and have been through it a couple of times. I have Rachel Pollacks "The Kaballah Tree" on the way (should get here tomorrow), and I believe that it mentions the Haindl directly, or so I've been led to believe. It also comes with a poster of the "Tree", done by Hermann Haindl. (which, not gonna lie, is why I got the book...)

Just did my first public reading here on AT for COS. I was pretty nervous about it, but I think it went okay. If anyone cared to have a look at it, I certainly wouldn't object... ;-)

Something I've been wondering-- where are all the other IDSers? The list on the first page is pretty long, but I feel like this thread only has about ten regulars these days. Are you out there other IDSers? Hows it all going? Check in and say hi why dontcha?

Have I checked in? I can't remember where I'm posting. The lines between my IDS and 78 weeks study are blurred.

I've started working on Le Bateleur/The Magician. One day jotting down my observations on the card, next day gleaning what tidbits I could from old threads here.

Not sure what I want to do this evening. Review all my LWB's perhaps.

Trying to pace myself. Not wanting to burn out.

Oh, I was gifted a Rolla Nordic Tarot. Its meant to be colored, which frightens me. So I copied it. This way, I can try my hand at coloring this cute little TdM, without fear of destroying my new deck.

Lucky you I'd love a Rolla Nordic!

Zan, lots of people are quiet about their IDS activities. I'm not very active with it at the moment, with a lot of RL stuff going on which is keeping me from my cards, but you'll find that there are certain people who want to talk about it and others who don't.

I've done nothing with my cards today and tomorrow won't be different. I would love to take them with me, but I'm going deep into the Pilbara region where dirt is not only vividly red, but seeks out clean white surfaces to stain. I'll be damned if it's getting anywhere near William I'll shower three times before I handle them upon my return tomorrow night . . . after which I'll be due to go to the inaugural meet-up for our newborn writers' group so . . . it's not going to be a productive IDS day. Oh well.

\m/ Kat

I don't think my deck is too happy with me. It keeps showering me with Majors. When I went to the movies with a few friends, I drew three cards for the day and they were all Majors! The High Priestess, The Devil, and The World at that! Today I did my five-card daily spread for school, and the first three were Majors too. (The Fool, Judgment, and The Hanged Man. Hopefully Judgment means I'll be receiving a tentative grade in that class...)